Thanks for reading today’s update of Top Step Trader
On July 31, 2015 TradingSchools.Org published a highly positive review of Top Step Trader.
From the months of August 2015 through December 2015, TradingSchools.Org was paid a commission on sales for all referred traffic from TradingSchools.Org to TopStepTrader.com. The total amount paid to TradingSchools.Org was $2,150 and two frozen pizza’s.
During the five months that TradingSchools.Org was a paid affiliate of Top Step Trader, I received a steady stream of complaints from individuals that had participated in the paid combines that Top Step Trader offers to customers. During this 5 month period, I came to realize that I was the “unofficial complaint department” of Top Step Trader. The numerous complaints compelled me to withdraw myself as a paid marketer for the company. On January 1, 2016 all of the affiliate tracking links were pulled from Trading Schools. However, the original review (highly positive) has remained published for the general public to read.
If a person is researching Top Step Trader on any of the search engines, then it is nearly impossible to not read the original review.
In retrospect, it was definitely a mistake to allow Trading Schools to essentially become an advertising platform for Top Step Trader. The prospect of earning a steady stream of affiliate income clouded the nagging questions that my readers and myself wanted to know. And those questions are glaringly evident…
- Since 2010, how many people have purchased a combine?
- How many were able to achieve the goal of receiving a funded trading account?
- What are the typical earnings of those that have received a funded trading account?
- Is Top Step Trader a viable path towards becoming a full time professional futures trader?
- Why won’t Top Step Trader publish more detailed statistics of the combine participants? In particular, the unsuccessful.
- Is Top Step Trader a legit opportunity, or is it a platform for suckers?
- Is Top Step Trader really a “Prop Trading Firm”?
Since Top Step Trader refused to provide me with useful statistics regarding trader performance, I was compelled to create a question and answer survey. On April 22, 2016, I published a survey that attempted to leverage the heavy amount of traffic that Trading Schools receives from those interested in the Top Step Trader trading combines. The survey attempted to answer the above questions. The following are the results of that survey, some general thoughts and observations, as well as interesting comments from those that participated in the survey.
The Top Step Trader Survey
In total, the survey generated 205 responses from individuals that had supposedly purchased a trading combine. However, I eliminated 41 of the responses. Why did I eliminate some of the responses? In some situations, individuals completed a survey and then submitted the survey. After they submitted the original survey, they then attempted to complete a new survey and then submit a second survey. All of these individuals were eliminated from the response pool. If they were willing to submit two surveys, then I felt there was a very good chance that they probably were not telling the truth, at least at some level. I wanted the pool of respondents to be as clean as possible.
The pool of respondents was whittled down to 163 respondents. These were all very clean respondents. All had taken the time to complete each and every question, and they had taken the time to write some very personal messages and viewpoints. This remaining pool of 163 persons, I would consider to be highly relevant, and highly credible.
The following set of numbers is a data table of those 163 Top Step Trader combine purchasers. This table is a breakdown of whom and how much was spent by each participant.
|163 Total Respondents||How much did you spend at TopStepTrader?||Average||Total|
As you can see, the total spend on trading combines, among these individuals was $186,795.
The average spend per customer at TopStepTrader is $1,145 per person. It appears that once an individual spends about $1750 dollars in combine fee’s, they then begin lose interesting in further spending.
How many people failed to receive a funded trading account?
Out of the 163 individuals, 79% or 129 individuals were never able to actually pass the combine and the funded trader preparation. These individuals represent $147,705 in spent combine fee’s, but were never able to receive a funded trading account. This estimation is based upon simply multiplying 129 individuals by the average spend of $1,145.
Some of these individuals gave accompanying responses that I found interesting…keep in mind then since most failed, then we can expect a heavy number of complaints.
TopStep nothing more that a wolf in sheep’s clothing with nothing to offer and gives traders a way to lose their accounts before ever trading a single live contract. What a shame and disgust TopStep is to the trading community.
Stop profiting with the underfunded wannabe traders… Just admit that you make your money providing a platform were a novice trader can train and “feel” the market and not blown away real money! But admit that like in the real trading only a few (almost no one) will achieve the goal of being funded and make money with it! Stop putting dreams and lies in the ones that are trying to find a way to provide for their family!
I think the Top Step organization should look at the stats about how many people are making it and staying funded, and ask themselves if they think it’s a fair and moral business model. And if the numbers prove that it’s not, then they should look in the mirror and ask if this is really what they should be doing with their life. If the numbers prove that it is a fair and moral business model, then publish them. Let us know what’s really going on.
Lower the fees, take off the 10 trading day limit (rule) and make it 30 days! Otherwise, this is just a scam! Also, bring back the 1 free Combine after you failed the Funded account!
What is my opinion? I think its completely normal for someone to be upset. Its normal and logical that if you spent $2,000 on combine fee’s, and you failed, you would be upset. Trading is a much tougher game than people realize. Most will fail. In my opinion, I was a bit shocked that “only” 79% failed. I actually expected it to be much higher. Honestly, I thought that 95% would of failed.
Those that actually received a funded trading account
Out of the 163 persons that attempted to pass the combine and the funded trader prep, a total of 34 individuals were able to receive a funded trading account. The account sizes of these funded trading accounts are irrelevant. Instead, the only relevancy is the maximum draw down that is allotted for each funded account. The average maximum draw down for those individuals that received a funded account was $2,000.
In addition to a maximum draw down that averaged $2,000, if a person has a daily loss of $1,000, or a weekly loss of $1,000, then they will automatically lose the funded trading account.
As many are aware, or might not be aware, the maximum draw down is only relevant for the first 10 days that a person receives the funded trading account. If a person failed to make any profits during the first 10 days of having the funded account, then the person loses the funded trading account. And so, there is a huge amount of pressure to make a profit during this very short window of time.
Of the 34 individuals that received a funded trading account, the average earnings was a negative $900 per person. What does negative $900 actually mean? This is the average earnings after combine fee’s and data fee’s were removed from any trading profits.
The average would of been much more negative, but one individual reported that he earned $20,000 and then withdrew his funds and closed his Top Step Trading account. Remove this one outlier, and the numbers become even more stark.
Why did he close his Top Step account if he was achieving such success? Simply, to avoid the high fee’s and deductions. Top Step trader pays 80% of profits and so a person can avoid those fee’s by withdrawing the earnings and then opening a simple retail account. Another reason is the high monthly fee’s of being a CME defined “professional prop trader”. Anyone trading a funded account with Top Step is responsible for paying average exchange fee’s of $85 per month. This can be avoided by opening a simple “non professional” retail trading account.
What is my opinion? Looking at the hard data, the vast majority of people earn nothing the first ten days of trading with the live account, and then they promptly lose the funded trading account. They are then sent back to the combine, which of course costs more fee’s.
Considering the abysmal failure rate of those that were actually able to “succeed” and receive the elusive funded trading account, you have really wonder if there is any real opportunity.
Of those that received a funded trading account, many gave comments that I found interesting…
Top Step is only willing to risk only a token amount during the first 10 days of having the funded account. It was silly of me to think that I could make it with only 10 days. In total I spent $6,000 in combine fee’s and earned nothing. I should of just started with a simulator and then once I had proven myself, then I could of just opened an inexpensive retail trading account
$700 spent, did not earn anything. I felt pressured to make money in the first 10 days of my funded the account so I over traded and hit my weekly loss limit. my own fault
I have spent around $700. I took $5000 as a withdrawal, and then lost the funded account.
To fix the topsteptrader scam they need to do 2 simple things. 1. remove the trailing draw-down all together, then a trader can actually have time to grind it out and build an account balance with the natural eb & flow of trading, without having to be near perfect during the first part of the trading account (also the time when you are most likely to be grinding it out, being conservative and having ups and downs). 2. Don’t take trading capital off the table after 10 days, to me this is the biggest fuck you they have. I can’t understand why they would do this. As a conspiracy theory consider that they don’t actually fund traders for the first 10 days and have you on a demo account (appearing to be a live account). If you are successful then they have to pay you out your profits (no problem to then as they were going to give you $1500 risk capital anyway). And if you are not successful in the first 10 days (which the majority who come through their system won’t be the first few times around) then you go back to combine and pay them some more, and they don’t have the “real” cost of you losing on your “live account”. To be honest having 4 live accounts and failing they really dont seem to give a fuck that you fail and lose their capital, they are very uninterested in you failing, why is that? Because they aren’t actually risking anything.
If you’ve lost big money trading in the past, then this can be used to slow the bleeding process. Once funded, get your money back from paying those fees, then close the account, and just trade on your own!
The trailing stop loss is complete bullshit. Get rid of it! Its only there to help you fail and send you back to the combine.
Is Top Step Trader really a professional “Prop Firm”?
In my opinion, as we take a hard and close look at the survey results and the hard numbers, we have to really ask ourselves…what exactly is Top Step Trader? It certainly is not a traditional prop trading firm. A traditional prop trading firm seeks to maximize the investment fund by leveraging the talent of the trading staff. A traditional prop trading firm also is accountable to investors, and those returns are usually published to future prospective investors.
Instead, Top Step Trader appears to make no returns from the traders that receive a funded trading account.
In a traditional prop trading firm, as a trader improves performance, then the trader is given more, and yet more of the firms capital to risk. However, Top Step is the exact opposite. With Top Step Trader, they are willing to only risk 10 days and about $2k maximum during those 10 days. Once the 10 days are up, if the trader has made nothing, then Top Step Trader closes the funded account and sends the person back to the combine. To pay yet more fee’s.
Most people do not seem to realize that during the 10 days of having a funded trading account, if they have only $100 in trading profits….then on DAY 11, they have a funded trading account worth only $100. On day 11, all the rules change, the draw down rules no longer apply. If on day 11 your account is $100, then you only have $100 to trade. Having only $100 in your trading account is not a very promising future.
What exactly is Top Step Trader?
Top Step Trader has been offering trading combines for about 5 years. The biggest question is WHERE ARE THE SUCCESS STORIES? Sure, every month there is a newsletter that describes a few individuals that were able make a couple thousand dollars. And that’s great. But is there anyone out there that has been able to consistently make a full time living trading with Top Step Trader? Does this person even exist? Valid questions.
In my opinion, what is most disappointing is the awesome amount of money that Top Stop Trader takes in from these paid combines, and yet they are willing to risk nearly zero on funded traders. The Trading Schools survey revealed that $186,795 dollars was taken in from paid combines, where is this money going?
Where is the money going?
In the next several days, I will be publishing a Part B to this blog post.
The Part B will be taking a closer look at the Top Step Trader business model. In particular, I will be revealing the following information:
- A best estimate of how many people are taking the combine each month
- An “off the record” conversation with an ex employee of Top Step Trader
- Revealing information from companies that provide essential technology to Top Step Trader
- An estimate of how much Top Step Trader is spending on advertising each month
- An estimate of how much Top Step Trader is spending each month on employees, rent, technology, etc.
- A general overview of the business model
Wrapping Things Up
Well that’s it for today. For those that participated in the survey, I wanted to thank you for your participation. This information will hopefully build a more accurate picture of Top Step Trader.
Thanks for reading and don’t forget to leave your comments below.
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I think that most of those who comment here are resentful losers … trade is a hard profession until you achieve consistency 95% throw in the towel .. in commerce it is a struggle between the best minds … not for whiners because unrecognized at first, they put the reputation of TST down the floor.
Any updates ? I noticed that their website has some metro-sexual weirdo sitting on a couch barefoot like some hipster loser , and its seems they did away with the open chatroom ?
Im still getting bombed with emails from them like things have changed .
Yep. Just cancelled my 50k combine. Put me down for -$600 plus. I guess I got fooled again. After 9 yrs of my trading education I thought I learned something. Guess not.
1000 persons paying 150 /month is 150 000 !
20% passing is 200 people needing
1 million to each trade 5 000
OBVIOUSLY candidates need to pay several month before getting funded.
When I see the numbers of some guys paying several thousand $ they can easily fund themselves !why only 20%
Some companies like apiary fund have a much higher success rate
Because they train their candidates before getting funded !
What training you get from TST?
I am one of the trader that’s able to pass the trading combine and get a funded account. the rule and combine are definitely tough. Most trading style will not make it due to tight draw down allow. Say you short 2 contract, and the market spike against your position quickly. Game Over. For me, I scalp the market mostly with small win thus lock out my risk asap. I have posted a video on YouTube if you want evidence. Yes, i just want to drive some view for my channel 🙁
Congrats on passing the combine, Andy. Hopefully, you don’t take too much abuse from readers. I always appreciate when folks take a chance to promote their channel/products etc.
You people are dumb as shit. To be a successful trader you have to have rules. Topstep clearly defines these rules in order for you not to lose them a shit ton of money. If you are a good trader you can easily pass the combines and the funded trader prep. If you cannot cut it in the funded trader you will hit your trailing draw down and will have to go back to the combine.
It is in no way topsteptraders fault that you cannot cut it and pass those combines-funded account. That is on you. If you cannot hack it in those accounts you do not deserve to be trading with real money.
I have been trading for 5 years and have had the funded account. I hit my trailing max drawdown. THAT IS COMPLETELY MY FAULT. As I was not ready to have a live account and I knew that.
You have the ability and brain power to pass that you deserve a funded account. As it is extremely difficult. What makes you think that trading a live account would be any different?
how much money have you made ??
looks like topstep do not like the new sherriff in town. Oneup is taking over https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6072769/topsteptrader-llc-v-oneup-trader-llc/
This is what happens when greed collides with stupidity.
Greed? How is it greedy they are willing to give you a 30k live account if you can hack having a live account.
One other thing I wanted to add. I know there are traders that can make this goal in the allotted time, but I’m sure some take trades that they normally wouldn’t take because of the trailing max draw down, fees and 30 day time frame bouncing in the back of their brains. For me personally, I think it would be fair and realistic if they would get rid of the trailing MDD and give 60 days to reach your goal for the price they are charging for one month. This is because sometimes certain markets will move sideways for a few weeks or longer. Some may say deversify, but isn’t smart to trade what you know? Sure you can scalp these moves but your asking your traders to add too many lots to meet their goals instead of taking it slow and easy. This reduces the stress and will make them a more effective trader and longer term partner in the funds journey. This allows the trader to take only the highest probability trades. But now after they have seen the profits they are making from even those traders that have failed and keep coming back, there’s no way they’re going to change. It’s all about the green
Emmett, thanks for taking the time to do the survey and write an update..this is going to save a lot of people from losing their hard earned money..maybe if they make some key changes it will be a better opp, but I seriously doubt it, not after the board meetings and after the fund owners see how much money they’re making off of monthly fees
Passed combines 5 times, funded with all, blew them all out in less than a month.
Sadly , a sixed combine of mine we had 3 people trading it. One person worked there and ended up blowing out the loss limit. He asked to have it CLEARED out , and the next day everything was back as if nothing happened. So you tell me if its legit if that can happen so easily.
The place is a scam, plain and simple . Nothing but a hamster wheel . CEO / Founder just stepped down too, so maybe the heat is on internally.
You only need 2-5 grand to trade futures , so use SIM, practice, and then do it on your own once you feel comfortable.
When I ran that survey and could see how terrible the results, it was really disappointing. My underlying motive for running the survey was to show how much money was being made by the company and hopefully inspire some more competition. It didnt work out as planned.
The CEO/Founder stepped down? That is curious. What are you hearing?
I recently got an email that the CEO Michael Patak would be stepping down and moving into a more Creative role. Code word for burying myself someplace safe before the shit hits the fan IMHO…
The word is out now that TopStep is a scam. They have been making modifications to their criteria, but as you probably have seen, you never actually get funded anything. Even if your profitable after the trial period, its already your money and TopStep is only risking your drawndown or standard Day trading futures margin as they REQUIRE you to be FLAT at the end of day.
They all come off as helpful and want you to succeed, but they are in the Combine business, not the funding business.
They create loyalty by giving away these TICKS for people who contribute and can be used to get FREE Combines. There are also a good number of people in their chat that are on some internal team that support the community. Again, mostly people who cant complete combines but are loyal and get TICKS and perks for helping out.
You could say I was fairly close to the org at one time and also a contributor. But it did not take me long to figure out they were all full of it.. However, I dont think they are anywhere as evil as some other trade schemes, but no doubt their intentions are exactly the same.
What do you mean by “even if your profitable after the trial period, its already your money “.
Don’t be upset that you cannot trade and follow an easy set of rules. If you cant follow those rules don’t trade. The fact that you think that you only need 2-5 grand to trade futures shows what a chump you are
When is Part B coming out???? Why the delay????
Here is a recent video presentation and blog post I did on TopStepTrader Versus Casino … I hope you enjoy it! Let me know what you think!!
That is a png picture, not a video. 😮
Click on his name “David Knight” and it’ll open the link.
I thought I’d post my two cents here, only because I respect the tradingschools.org website. As per usual, I fully believe that the small amount of profitable traders out there spend there time being profitable, not wasting their time posting on forums. That is left to the angry minions who have never approached profitability in their lives.
The hate for TST comes simply from the fact that VERY few people ever learn how to trade consistently. This is what you are getting into with TopStepTrader. They have a very effective business model built around the fact that a huge majority of the people coming into their program are failed traders (if they’ve ever traded at all) with the dream of somehow making it with little effort or practice. This is the bulk of their profit as a company, with only a sidebar of money made from their profit split with actual funded traders.
Firstly, as others have stated, they DO fully fund you if you pass the combine and FTP. I passed both (after three tries) and others in this forum have spoken of their experience as a funded trader as well. It DOES happen if you follow the rules.
My advice, and the only reason I made it the last time, was opening the largest account and trading with the smallest position size, so that my drawdowns in no way could cause me to get kicked back to the beginning. This was the only way I made it, but it took me over three months, which means three monthly payments of the 150K combine. Not everyone is willing to do that.
It has also taken me quite awhile to start withdrawing from the account, because I again began with the smallest position size when starting with the funded account.
Bottom line, the company DOES fund you if you follow the rules. I suspect from all the comments I’ve seen both here and on other sites, that 99% of the people whining about TST have never traded profitably.
As others have mentioned, why not buy a data feed somewhere and trade in Sim until you know without a doubt that you can pass their rules? Of course, almost nobody is willing to do this, because everyone wants their money now. And I can’t blame you, I didn’t even do it right until the last time.
All I can say is, they do follow through with their promise if you follow the rules. The rules are strict, which is why I think the smaller combines are a joke – if you’re serious about doing this, prove you can pass the combine first before paying them, then set yourself up with a large enough account that you can survive the drawdowns in the meantime.
I am realistic about my returns – I make enough to supplement my monthly income, that’s it. I’m not expecting to make a fortune anytime soon, and I don’t think anyone coming into this program should either, if they expect to last very long.
Do it as responsibly as possible. Is it moral for them to make most of their money off of failed combines? I guess that’s up to you to decide. Is it moral for insurance companies to charge premiums when very few claims are ever paid out? Is it moral for your doctor to charge you $500 for a 10-minute visit?
That’s my two cents.
Hey IJohnson, really appreciate your honest take on TST
Totally agree with you here. It costed me 70k of my own money before I actually could trade with a 80% win rate with larger average wins than losses. Sounds ridiculous, but I think that is why most people fail. Rarely would I have a losing day (1 out of 15-20 days). On a live account with TD Ameritrade I would have 30% a month on the account returns. Made one mistake multiple times (one stubborn day could wipe out a whole month profit) and said I won’t go back until this mistake is fixed. TST gives me a solution to that since they don’t allow you to lose at all. With my own money I figured what the hell I can make it back tomorrow.
My biggest tip, which is something I’ve rarely EVER seen mentioned, is that you should stop thinking that they’re giving you a 30K, 50K, 100K, or 150K account.
That is bullshit.
All they’re really giving you is the amount you’re able to drawdown until you’re kicked back to the beginning. So with a 150K ‘account’, you can draw down $4500 max (there are more detailed rules than this, please study them) – So they’re really only giving you a $4500 account, not $150K.
That’s how you have to look at it, and why I stressed strongly in my first post the idea of trading with a very small position size and slowly building up the account over time.
Bottom line as always – Don’t even bother with them if you can’t already trade consistently and stay within their rules. You’ll just blow your money.
How much does the combine cost?
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if among the users of your life has to throw these scams people’s contacts for assistance and nickname person who will explain what to do
his nickname- Solomon7777
My opinion … Jury is out.
I have been actively trading with TST for 2 years now. I have passed into funded trader status 3 times in a year. The last time I lasted 14 days and pulled out some money. I got paid from TST and put it in the bank.
I might be willing to share more. One thing you are definitely right about they make a big push to the funded traders, but there is nothing planned for those that do nothing wrong.
My last funded account I experienced a drawdown and didn’t feel comfortable trading against the zero line. I withdrew 279 and change. As Jesse Livermore said, “the only safe money in trading is money you take out of your trading account.
Don’t I feel the love? No.
You would think they would have a plan for traders who made no mistakes. My last time I went 34 days profitable. 10 in the combine, 10 in FTP and 14 days in the funded account.
My suggestion was redevelopment so we could get back sooner … Nope ..l nada … Nothing. My only option is to go back into the continuous combined and pay 150 per month until I get back in FTP.
I believe you are right … They need competition to force them to do the right thing.
Recently, I was reading on bucket shops … I see a lot of similarities here. My 2 cents from inside the belly of the beast.
This is coming from a person that wants them to recognize traders accomplishments past just qualifying for funded trader.
I could say a lot more but this will suffice for now …
Efforts do not count. The only thing that counts is results. They have clearly demarked results that must be met. Either they are met, or they are not. There is no middle ground.
Before you call me a shill, I disagree with a lot of how they are setup, which is why I have never bothered to take a combine.
last week you gave up on TST, now you have a TST shirt, hat and a combine? Did TST send you a pizza also?
I tried to reply on YouTube. I don’t like Rithmic pro that is offered by MES. I am more comfortable with TST. No pizza and not being paid from them other than what I got from actual trading account.
Obviously, I don’t see eye to eye with the funded department. This is where this disconnect has occurred. I suppose I am either part of the problem or part of the solution.
I believe …
1. They should bring back the 35 dollar practice account.
2. Ease the rules in funded to give 20 trading days.
3. Redevelopment should be offered past 10 trading days if you have not broken any trading rules.
That would be of the most benefit right now. I received an email from HOAG and I am hopeful the next changes will be of benefit to the funded traders.
We will see Broke Mike … Thanks for asking. I suppose it is about going with what I know as opposed to the unknown of MES at this point in time.
Topsteptrader makes money on selling access to trade a SIM account with the promise that one can earn a funded account, however it is a dream factory, not a source of funding or a path to an independent life as a trader, but worst of all: a system that lives by you fail, it may be the world’s worst trader school.
I am looking for Part B
Below is a quote from FIO, something M. Patak posted in his AMA thread which touches on a lot of points of interest:
First off, I want to thank our passionate community for its invaluable contribution and responses on this thread. Our community’s answers have, of recent, been very accurate and forthright, and we didn’t feel the need to step in.
Our mission at TopstepTrader is to empower anyone, anywhere, to earn the financial freedom to pursue their dreams and we stand by it. As we mentioned on our blog (Make $1 Million or Be a Successful Trader?), 78% of our traders are employed full-time, part-time, or self-employed, and our opportunity consistently contributes supplemental income to our funded traders’ personal bank accounts, whether that’s $100 or $10,000+ per month. We realize and acknowledge not everyone will succeed in the difficult business of trading, but we are striving to make the financial markets safer and easier to engage with and profit from.
We are, however, a private company and therefore do not release certain information, as is industry standard for proprietary trading firms. Why?
Trader Privacy – many of our traders do not want their performance to be included in any type of data or results
Relevance – trading is an individual “sport”; other’s success or lack thereof has zero bearing on how you or any other trader may perform
Innovation – company privacy allows us to innovate more effectively, build on our proprietary processes, and be the leader in creating and delivering the most unique opportunity for traders to pursue their dreams
I would like to, however, address a couple concerns:
10-day Rule: Prior to implementing this rule, the number of traders we funded, and their profits, were few and far between. The reason for this is that traders would come onto the Funded Account and immediately leverage themselves into burying it. It was par for the course.
We asked ourselves, how can we get these traders to slow down and build their balance in a safer, more meaningful way? The answer was simple – scale their positions and focus them on an achievable, foreseeable target. The 10-day rule was born.
Since that time, we’ve funded more than 700 traders. Those traders have profited considerably and taken numerous checks. The reality is that trading is extremely risky and, as any great trader will tell you, trading is all about managing risk. This rule promotes that behavior.
Business Model: A few have commented on our business and Trading Combine fees in particular. Much like how trading is a business, so is funding traders. The reality is that we need to charge for our evaluation in order to fund traders. We charge for a number of reasons, including:
Risk: We want our traders to have something on the line in order to simulate a live market environment. In our infancy, we didn’t charge for the Trading Combine and realized no one took it seriously – someone could be on an account for 6 months, get lucky, and string 10 days together. Trader accountability helps prevent that.
Expenses: We are a business. We’ve never pretended to be anything other than that. We all trade so we can make profits and live out our dreams – it’s not an altruistic endeavor. Additionally, we continuously reinvest in our business to innovate our process and technology, in order to find and scale more traders worldwide.
Given we’ve been around for 6 years now, we remain an innovative, ever-evolving approach to trading and earning money in a traditional industry. We are constantly improving to further balance the benefits for all involved, from newbie to prop firm. We appreciate the feedback, which we always take into account, and plan to tirelessly continue improving the funding process.
Thank you and trade well,
Patak isnt a bad guy. I have a big list of bad guys.
Top Step Trader isnt a scam. Thats for sure. Is it a great deal for traders? No. Could it be a better deal? Yes. And that is what I am pushing for.
My next update is going to be quite revealing.
Hoiw do I reach Emmett Moore by phone, skype or email??? Thanks
A load of bull. Unfortunately, many don’t see through this smokescreen and waste time and money with such firms. Listen people, no one is going to fund you based on a month’s worth of track-record and offer you 80% of the profits you make on their money. In the real investment world, fund managers keep 20-25% of profits made. Patak says they’re a business, indeed, but their business model isn’t to find trading talent and fund it, as they want you to believe, but to fleece newbie traders.
Man that article reads like con artist malarkey to me and that is being way to kind. They do not post stats because they are so concerned over Trader Privacy. Give me a break. How is posting general statistics violating anyone’s privacy. Did Emmett’s posting of stats violate those trader’s privacy? No one is asking you to post trader Rob B’s exact stats.
And I could not stop laughing at the 10 day rule. It was not to screw people, but to help them. Seriously if you are profitable in 10 days does the exact opposite of what they claimed. That rule forces people to immediately leverage themselves and blow their account. This is exactly what happens as supported by the stats Emmett published.
Let review the actual stats. 79% fail after spending close to $150K. And the surviving 21% had an average earning of -$900 per person. What else needs to be said.
Why risk going to jail like Bernie Madoff when you can run a nice profitable scam like that. The only person making money here is Top Step. I would not trust or believe a single word this company says.
BTW many people said Bernie Madoff is a nice guy. IMO humble opinion I do not care how nice you pretend to be, scamming people with false hopes makes you a con artist in my book.
“We asked ourselves, how can we get these traders to slow down and build their balance in a safer, more meaningful way? The answer was simple – scale their positions and focus them on an achievable, foreseeable target. The 10-day rule was born.”
This is some prime quality BS. A 10-day performance windows ENCOURAGES bad trading and leverage, as the shortness of the period means that a trader would try to force trades, even when conditions do not properly setup. If you are trying to see how traders behave when they are not waiting for ideal conditions, then that makes sense. Otherwise, it is ass-backwards.
A much more sensible method is to specify a longer period, and a specific goal that you want your traders to achieve. for example if you want them to make an average of $500 per week per contract traded, then you give them a reasonable time to do so. So for example they have 6 weeks to produce a minimum of $3000 per average contract, calculated based on the average size (capped) of their trades.
As an example, in the last 10-days trading, these were my results, as I was waiting for the trades to setup and (per rules) cancelling those orders that did not fill fast enough (per rules).
6/3 Long W1, L1: Short W1, L2
6/6 Long W2, L2: Short W0, L0, S(cratch) 1
6/7 Long W1, L0: Short W0, L1
6/8 Long W1, L0: Short W1, L1
6/9 Long W0, L0: Short W0, L0
6/10 Long W1, L1, S1: Short W0, L1
6/13 Long W1, L2: Short W2, L0, S1
6/14 Long W3, L1: Short W1, L1
6/15 Long W1, L2: Short W0, L0, S1
6/16 Long W3, L0, S1: Short W1, L1
How many entries did I get and cancel because the order did not fill in the expected time? About 20.
As you can see, that is not an 80% win rate. Actually, it is one of my better runs, and it is nowhere near 80% win rate. I have had 10-day periods when I made 2 losing trades and that was it. I have had 10-days when I made 20 losing trades and maybe 12 or so winning trades. That of course is also below your 45% rate that you are asking, so I would have failed your combine anyway. I have also had 10 day runs where I made maybe 10 losses to 30 wins. They are NOT the norm, but if I would have been lucky enough to catch one of those 10-day spells during an FTP, I would look much better than I really am.
The point is that if I were under a 10-day gun to show performance over the last 10 days, I would probably have been leveraged to the maximum, and not scratching trades, and taking marginal trades just to build a so-called cushion. A 10-day window is a crap shoot. Please stop trying to justify it as making traders more responsible: such a small window does exactly the opposite, and the trading becomes a matter of luck, not discipline.
If I were to start a day-trading room, here would be some of the expectations that I would set.
1. Can you turn $5k into 50k in one year? Maybe, but it is very unlikely. $5k is so small that you are more likely to wipe out. Have people started with such small amounts and made a fortune? So some say. There are NOT the rule, and we do not know how the stars lined up for them in what may have been a lucky spell.
2. You will spend long periods of boredom doing nothing but waiting for the trade to set up; then you may have to cancel the entry order because it does not fill quickly enough, meaning that the market is not moving after all.
3. You may get many trades setup in a row, and have to cancel all the entries because they do not fill early enough.
4. You will have to scratch trades because they have gone on too long and not made a target or stop, because the market is just chopping around after you entered. You just have to get out and wait for a better opportunity.
5. There will be times when, at entry, your stop may be bigger than your target, because that is where the parameters say they must be. If you expect that for every trade you will have a target that is 3 times your stop, you are wasting your time in here.
6. You WILL make a series of losing trades. Only discipline to quit according to the rules will save your account. There will NOT be a straight up equity curve: there WILL be drawdowns. You must be prepared to take them, and know when to fold for the day. The size of your drawdowns will be entirely up to how disciplined you are in taking losses before they become larger than you intended.
7. We will NEVER add to a losing trade; we only add to trades that are winning. If a trade is losing, it means that our initial analysis was wrong. We shall not compound the problem by adding to it.
8. You are very unlikely to make 80% winning trades.
9. You are unlikely to build a $15k profit in 10 days trading 3 contracts.
Naturally, with expectations like that, how many clients will I have?
I now have no doubt that Topstep is just a marketing scheme and a mouse wheel trap! They are profiting huge amounts imposing ridiculous rules yhat were tought for the costumer to fail and keep giving them money on those “combines” that are only plain old SIM trading! … Just point your friends to them!
If they were really making any money on funding traders would tehy send this kind of email to their costumers? You tell me…
Want to empower your friends with the opportunity to earn a Funded Account™ ?
You can win a free Trading Combine by simply sharing the TopstepTrader opportunity with your friends and family. It’s easy to refer & all our users are invited to participate!
HOW IT WORKS
1. Refer your friends on our website.
2. They will receive a special offer for 20% off their first Trading Combine® and be on their way to earn a Funded Account™ – all thanks to you.
3. Your name will be entered into a monthly drawing for a FREE Trading Combine. For each verified email you will receive an additional entry!
How very nice. You give them more scammees, and for that you get to take part in a raffle with little chance of getting anything for all those referrals.
This was what I was trying to explain in my previous posts today but you did it way better than I ever could. Well said Osikani. Everyone needs to read this post. This sums it up
Hey Emmett, read my comments on your first TopStep article – I said then that no way this is a legit firm, just another shady trading education outfit that uses the ‘get funded’ pitch to hook newbies. And that your positive review meant that the TST guys bought you.
I’m happy you came clean now.
PS. Correct the years in the firs sentence here: ”From the months of August 2016 through December 2016, TradingSchools.Org was a paid a commission on sales ”
Yep, I was a paid douche bag. Lesson learned.
I will be starting a combine again next week. The only reason I’m doing this is because it is free after I passed the last combine (before they stopped doing this). If I don’t pass, I will be moving on to MES Capital. I won’t pay TST a dime after reading these comments. I trust Emmett, mostly because I have been in so many of the rooms he has reviewed and have agreed 100% with the findings. Even, when he makes a mistake he admits it and often completes a second review of the company. Who else does that? I think passing some kind of test and earning funding is the smartest thing a new trader can do. Even if you go with TST, as shady as they are, the fees are peanuts compared to losing real money. I wish I would have done this years ago, it would have saved me thousands.
Actually, I would like to see Top Step Trader loosen the purse strings and provide a better deal for traders. That’s the goal.
Thanks for the comments.
Yes that would be nice. I hope they are reading this.
Well said Kristi. Emmett even dropped his deal with TST. Other site owners would just delete posts or even ban dissenters re: their select vendors.
Thanks for this review. I have a free combine coming after I passed it but then failed ftp before they did away with this deal. anyways i will not give them another dime, if i fail then i am moving on to mes which has much better reviews.
” … ftp before they did away with this deal”
You mean that they do not do FTP any more?
No they still do. I meant they no longer allow you to go back to the combine for $1 if you fail FTP. I think this proves they are just after your money. If not, they would encourage people to keep going and offer the combine for free after you pass once.
21% of traders who received funding seems above average, especially considering those are likely, shall we call, second tier traders; elite tier traders do not need TST. Also, 21% is likely on the low side, since people with bad experience are more likely to chime in and leave a negative review.
10day rule to build balance is very suffocating and will lead to bad decisions, but it is opportunity to trade with DD 12x combine fee and you have 10 days to do it. It would be really bad business to give people unlimited time to play around with $10k for a $150 fee, which is what seems the crowd feels it deserves. If you don’t like the rules simply don’t join.
Judging from their trader highlight e-mails. I would guesstimate they generate well over 90% of their income from combine fees and will continue to do so until some real competition steps up. Right now there isn’t anybody cheaper, with less time to funding, profit target/fee and 1+ withdrawal history
Savius (10+20 days, $2000+$4000) $200 refundable
while great company to work with, $200 combine with $2000 1st stage profit target and 20day/$4000!! “FTP”, significantly steeper requirement for same $2000 DD acct and only 70% profit share
Proptraders.biz, (10+10days, same but 10% cheaper than TST, off to a sketchy start)
apparently started the company without enough capital to even fund second trader, assuming the first one was even real, and are changing rules as they go along. Promising funded account to be ready one day, then requiring additional FTP stage a week later. Removing re-do’s etc.
MES – free one shot to make it, requires 18 days traded
Manovermarket – $500 minimum spend, 2 months minimum traded, $5000 profit requirement
Good luck to all
– Realistic Broke Elite Trader with a Dream
Totally surprised that 21% got funded. I thought maybe 5% would be funded. Its actually quite positive.
That 10 day rule is complete BS. It makes the company look terrible. As more competition moves into the space, I would expect that the pressure will mount to extend that.
Am attempting to build a risk model of what a big pool of losing traders looks like, and how that would affect a monthly combine pool. Its tricky because I only have some so many variables to work with.
When is Part B coming out? I keep waiting for the second part of this review.
Lets not forget, out of all of the companies named, TopStep is the only one where I have been able to actually confirm that funded traders do exist.
Regarding Borsellino “ManOverMarket”…oh my, oh my, have I got some choice information that has landed into my inbox.
Precisely, out of all the companies I know of out there, Topstep is by far the leader:
– lowest profit targets
– high DD/fee
– fastest time to funding
– highest payout %
– only one with proven track record of actually paying out
– actually funding 21%+ of combine entrants
Biggest downside is 10 days to build a cushion once live. BUT if on day 9, you have used up less than 50% of max allowed DD, you can opt for “redevelopment opportunity” where you get free combine with lesser profit target. Upon passing, get brand new funded account. So if you are an advanced hamster who is great at combining and not so great at trading, you ultimately get infinite opportunity to get off the ground while they assume all the risk.
While some legitimate competition with better conditions would be very welcome, there is a reason there is none – giving random people on the internet thousands of dollars to trade with is not profitable.
Calling TST a scam if a bit of a stretch, IMO
MES Capital is still the better choice, even according to Emmett. Beside being free, the shortness of the trial is not necessary a positive thing. The longer the trial, the more likely one passing it is going to survive the Live phase. From the firm’s POV, it makes sense that they want to see as much of your trading as possible.They also prescreen, so not every high school kid who stumbled upon their website can take a shot. They also don’t charge for the exchange fees. They don’t overstate the account size, so maybe they are more honest.
Not to mention Emmett gave a good review of them! 🙂
It makes perfect sense to give MES a shot, since they are completely free. But, they have no defined funding guidelines, no profit split available nor much in the way of reviews of actual funded traders for further evaluation. Assuming profitability , 100% profit split will make up the fees over 50-70% profit split.
Per above stats 75%+ require more than 1 attempt / 1 month, which leads back to TST as second and only option.
From firm’s POV it makes perfect sense to charge as high of fees as they can get away with , have as strict rules as possible for as long as possible. It’s no secret the firm is generating millions in combine fees, so their interests are just fine.. But since we are defending the broke superstar trader who feels “hamster wheeled” into oblivion and wants infinite funding for unlimited time for smallest possible fee, I believe time to funding does play a role.
Actually the trial is the same because TST makes you trade a minimum of 10 days in the combine followed by 10 days FTP.
TST is definitely not a scam.
Wait until I write about Apiary Fund.
I agree it is not a scam however your statement is no longer valid… no more freebies after a failed funded trader prep, support just confirmed today.
Top Step is attempting to “juice” the front end by offering a cash contest for combine participants. Pure nonsense. A gimmick.
We don’t want gimmicks. We want more liberal policies that favor the funded traders. This is the goal.
I think you confused the “once live” part with FTP. When you are actually funded if you are less than 50% of max DD or profitable day 10, you can opt for a free redevelopment combine.
So if you didn’t get off to a fast enough start live, you can jump back into combine for free and be reset into brand new funded account upon completion. (assuming you didn’t violate any rules)
You could cost em -$999 (on 50k combine) at day 9, opt for re-development combine, receive brand new $2k DD account w day count reset to 0 upon completion
this is great news. Thank you. I was confused too. Thank you for the clarification.
Proptraders.biz are some of the biggest scammers out there IMO. A shady russian company at it’s best. They have one fake “funded” trader and they just rejected a trader who passed their combine by changing the rules on the fly and adding an FTP. I doubt you would see any money from Proptraders.biz even if you managed to pass the hamster wheel and trade succesfully. At least TST pay’s out.
I am currently taking the PROPTRADERS qualification. So far it is a good experience. Great lightning fast skype support and their ATAS trading platform is pretty good that must be used for trading. The good thing is that there are several free attempts if you fail the first time like I have…i’m on my 2nd free qualification and I can get more, which is way better than TST. I think their rules are better than TST and I have no complaints on them.
The Russian traders have written statements to the police in the company Proptreyders. Since their accounts are closed and the money is not paid. Management does not respond to the letter.
Well, I tried Proptraders.biz only because Pekelo mentioned it. I passed the FTP, emailed them, and got a reply in Russian.
Уважаемые пользователи PROPTRADER’S!
Это заявление делается с целью разъяснить ситуацию вокруг проекта.
На текущий момент его поддерживать некому, т.к. средств от клиентов компания не получала. Соответственно, содержать службу поддержки, предоставлять платформу и нести прочие обязательства нет ни возможности, ни смысла.
I googled the translation:
Dear users PROPTRADER’S!
This statement is to clarify the situation around the project .
At the moment there is no one to support him , because funds from the customer company has not received . Accordingly, include support , and provide a platform to carry other liabilities is neither possible nor meaningful.
Just to add, I was a funded TST trader back in May. Got too excited and blew the account in 2 weeks.
I restarted, together with Proptraders.biz, and MES Capital.
I finished the MES Capital and reported to them.
Their evaluation parameters are basically the same EXCEPT the -$1000 DD was not included, so I really liked it. Well, my email to them was back in late June, and I was told to wait for a few days while they’re reviewing my trades. So far, they haven’t contacted me. I had one hair-raising trading day where I went -$2200 intraday and finished at -$1700. Maybe, that’s the day they didn’t like but I didn’t break any rules.
Also, I just finished the FTP on TST so I’m back as a funded trader. I’m one of those who spent about $3300 on TST. So yeah, I’m an advanced hamster!
I gave up on TST hamster wheel and found MES Capital. I blew their trial away by nearly double the required target. Since then they have asked me to go 10 more days with no target. “Just keep doing what you’re doing” they said. They also want my to change to Vankar Trading software, oh and they also take 50% cut. I can’t get the Vankar software to install and I think it is because it requires Windoze ver 7. I qualified using Rithmic’s R/Trader and I always say “dance with what brought you” so all of this is making me very nervous. Anyone else have issues with MES Capital?
Can you please tell me about where to get in touch with PROPTRADERS? I too feel TST is a huge hamster wheel scam and want to go with something legit. Thanks!
I do not know how my experience is going to end, I have passed the combine after a few ones and actually struggle with Funded Trader Preparation. Once funded, the one rule I see is to maintain an account greater than zero, thats all, you get there or you dont, but seems fair.
Thanks Emmett for all your research & for exposing all these shady businesses. I was wondering if you have heard of fundseeder & what are your thoughts on it. It’s Co-founder is Jack D. Schwager, author of Market Wizards who also happens to be involved in doing presentation/marketing for this business.
Yes, am familiar with Fundseeder. But I have to tell you a big problem, at least with the trading educational realm…nearly 99.9% of the educators want nothing to do with trade tracking. I created something similar, and the sign up rate is abysmal.
However, I had to create a tracking mechanism to give the educators that got a poor review, the opportunity to get a positive review.
Hmm, they do not want tracking to show their “True” performance results. Gosh I can not imagine why. I wonder what it could be. Hmmm, have to think on this one.
haha. there is no “performance”, probably hasn’t been any for years with these scam vendors. Just that old dusty dell dinosaur in the closet where they lost money when first trying to trade the “dream” with their old connection to pfgBest and win9x platforms i.e. trade navigator.
Any update on Part B? Really appreciated the Survey and curious about the second part.
Everyone. Put this in your Money Management Trading Plan: Trust NO ONE with your Capital!!! I mean No one!
OMG I’m totally shocked. There is no point to doing this then if you aren’t properly funded, if you only get to trade with the profits you make from the qualification stage. It just does not make sense for retail traders to do this! Thanks for posting an update Emmett. I did the combine a few times myself and did not pass. I’m not putting anymore money into it. The only good thing about it is that it showed me areas where I needed to improve.
The way I see it, if you become a consistently profitable trader, you can trade your own account and don’t need to rely on outside sources of funding. The only issue is getting sufficient capital to do this.
“To fix the topsteptrader scam they need to do 2 simple things”
That comment gave me a laugh. Emmett, Emmett, Emmett. This entire industry is based on nothing but false hopes and dreams and very little reality. And that is not cynical; that is reality. I am sure TS has done the mathematical models and realize they can only make money doing business this way. There is a reason no one else is funding day traders except MES, which I seriously doubt makes a penny. If there was money to be made funding broke day traders tons of people and companies would be doing it. Heck the Venture Capitalist would leave Silicone Valley and fund want to be day traders. Most of the business the VC’s fund go belly up, so why not fund day traders if so profitable? The answer is obvious. This industry is nothing but con artist. Even I did not realize how bad it is, but now I am becoming more and more aware. I do not thing there is another industry like this in the US that is this corrupt.
As long as idiots and yes that is what they are; people who are clueless about money and return on money who think with no capital can quit their day job and with no other source of income make a living day trading they will continue to be scammed and there will be plenty of scammer waiting for them. The only one laughing is the con artist on the way to the bank with your money.
The whole idea that there is this mysterious thing that none of the great investors know about, day trading whereby you can have little capital, make HUGH returns, suffer virtually no drawdowns, have an 80% win rate and so forth and so forth. After this site I have no symphony for those people.
It was not until I woke up from my Kool-Aide induced state and say the light I realized just how this is nothing but non sense. I then realize trading has more in common with all other type of investment than most people realize. Yes I trade but I am property funded, do not have a straight up equity curve or expect one, do not have an 80% win rate or anything like that and I sure as hell do not microscalping CL for 20 trades a day every day come rain or shine and I have draw downs that can be large. That is how real trading works not the fantasy image being portrayed by all the con artist.
Rob, Rob, Rob, you are just a dream-crusher. Telling the truth like that. How dare you?
90% win rate ? Easy.
5 tick stop, 25tick target? Easy.
Drawdown? What is that?
Turn 2k into 50k in one year? Of course. Just need to make $200 a day regularly, every day. Drawdown you say? WTF is that?
Stop crushing the dream.
The funny thing is I am like if you want to gamble on a long shot then take up professional poker player. I know 2 people that actually make there living doing that.
I have to add the room that scammed me traded CL for 4 ticks with 8 ticks stop loss and he lost over 50% of the time. Theoretically with that play you should win more than you lose, but that is what slippage does.
Gosh I get ill just thinking how stupid I was to believe that nonsense. My only solace is that the greatest criminal mind of our time was also taken by the same trading room.
Looking forward to reading Part B. They will be even more interesting.
Thank you Emmett for this update and review and being responsive to the readership questions and complaints. I recall the two frozen pizzas in the original review, quite funny. Shocking to hear only profits carry on as funded after the 10 days pre-funding trial. Any other examples of funded account sizes? As everyone knows, the “other” site has at the very top of their “vendors” page TopSteps’ ask me “anything” thread. No wonder those complaints flowed here as they would likely get warned or banned from the other site. Someone mentioned there was at least a count of 700 who passed into funding. Going by your sample set and extrapolating, that would mean about 22x the sample set fees which would be amount to $4.1 million at some point in time. Looking forward to the part B update about where those fees go, probably some of it goes into a similar referring deal ts.org previously had of the other site. The president was also touted just last month of being a finalist for Ernst & Young’s “entrepreneur of the year”. http://blog.topsteptrader.com/topsteptrader-michael-patak-ey-entrepreneur-of-the-year-2016-finalist?utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=29169527&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_xPFrvj111atly_hGd37DeBm_iWABaIy0__5dD7kKO5yHhSqGhj8q13SeeQ526AINbmFmKwSAGsTzlWx25XEzple_1uJpVUvViNpGlfz7jW8jCQPU&_hsmi=29169527
I wonder if the example of the guy who withdrew 10k started his own retail account to stop paying fees too. It’s been a long while as the review mentioned before any serious questions about the “business model” has been getting answers. I remember when TST came on to the scene and recall reading the “testimonials” including where one young lady was living the “dream” of a funded account where her strategy was just using moving averages, lol.
Part B will be much more revealing. Through various interviews, I was able to come up with a ball park number of monthly combines. Which is pretty cool because I have always wondered. Everyone is wondering.
What is also very interesting is the monthly breakdown in expenses for the company. Going to really pick that apart and give best estimates.
When I had written the original review, about a year ago, I was hoping that more competition would come into play. Thus far, no other companies have adopted the model and attempted to squeeze the TopStep margins. There is plenty of fat in the TopStep model. If they had more competition, then this would push market forces into more balance. At the end of the day, I want to see more liberal policies that benefit the individual traders. Once I publish the profits margins, perhaps this will be the motivation that drives a creative entrepreneur into the mix.
It is very incorrect to say there are no other companies with the same business model, when I know of at least 5. (Savius, MES capital, proptraders.biz, etc) You actually reviewed MES, have you forgotten? These firms’ rules are almost the same as TST’s, right to the dot. I have always wondered why they have to copy such a shitty rules, when everyone is complaining about them? How much competition they provide is hard to say, but TST competitors definitely have been existence for years now.
Before anyone asks, here are the others:
Pulsarcap.com, Manovermarket.com, surcaptrading.com and up to a point chancerylanetraders.com
Pulsar has been in this business since 2010, the earliest competitor to TST. There is a long thread about them on Trade2win.
Most of these companies are very shady outfits, and that raises the question: Could TST be the only legit backing firm when all the other similar copycat firms look not kosher? Or maybe this business model doesn’t really work as advertised and none of them are legit?
I guess we will know more after the 2nd part is published…
I don’t know why people deal with these firms at all. This statement from a TST trader “In total I spent $6,000 in combine fee’s and earned nothing. I should of just started with a simulator and then once I had proven myself, then I could of just opened an inexpensive retail trading account” is well worth listening to.
In other words, get a Sim and trade the TST rules on your own. If you are successful using them, open your own account, and stick to the rules.
If you are not successful using them, then you need to assess yourself. Is it that you did not trade with the discipline necessary to stay within the rules, or are the rules impossible? If the rules are impossible, modify them and obey your (now) own set of rules.
Rinse, repeat, until you have rules that you can follow with discipline and make a profit, then open your account and trade it.
I understand the shadyness of TST or other firms like that. But hey, let’s not forget that they are mostly preying on people who have not really spent time and energy learning how to trade. The financial markets are very seductive in making you think you can make a great living or even get rich quick without much work. Sorry guys, but you have to shoulder part of the blame. How long have you really worked at trading? Why should becoming a really good trader be any different than becoming a good doctor or lawyer or writer or musician? I spent years and lots of money before I got it right — years and money and 1,000’s of hours in front of the computer — . . . so take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself, “what do I really have to do to become a consistently profitable trader?” Because even if you get funded, you’ve got to continue to produce which is why the ones who get funded often blow it out shortly thereafter. Trading is a business, not a Vegas style quick money deal and you need to think of it as a business — do you have a business plan? Think about who you are up against — professionals who have large computer power, deep pockets and lots of training and experience — and they want and will gladly take — your money. Really, it’s no different than actually walking into the ocean with a school of sharks swimming right next to you. You wouldn’t do that, would you? Why would you do the same thing with your hard earned money? I guess some do. Sorry to rant on. I always feel empathy for those who have been taken, but then I also feel pissed that they haven’t taken a good look at what they are doing before stepping in the water.
Man, I have to disagree with this to some extent. I can name lots of trades who spend 1000’s of hours watching charts and who just lose, lose and lose more money.
Yes trading is not easy and it is a full time plus job, but the biggest problem is that Trading Rooms are teaching non sense and most are teaching how to trade white noise. And you can spend a million hours and it will make no difference.
They teach a fantasy world where people with little to no capital can use 500 to 1 leverage to trade a highly volatile instrument like CL and micro scalp it for 20 trades a day and replace their day time job with day trading like a salary and all with an 80% win rate and straight up equity curve.
As long as you trade that way, your odd of winning the power ball lottery are better. So go buy power ball tickets and make a living.
Rob B, ah but the key is have they developed a well-oiled, working plan to trade, not some crap these rooms teach, giving them canned indicators and scalp rules, no not that, but a real method to trade with entry, stops, targets, a plan that has been fully developed and tested. Yes some will still fail due to emotional responses to markets but some, if they’ve done the work, will succeed.
From what I have seen many eventually realize the trading rooms are scams but continue to believe they somehow can micro scalp the same way the trading rooms teach. In other words the TR operators cannot trade profitable but they will be able to do such doing the same thing. Many then just start to use one meaningless indicator after the other. I have yet to see one do it.
Still looking for that unicorn. I would love to be able to come in everyday scalp a market and take home a pay check every day no matter what the market is doing.
This whole prop trading thing sorta reminds me of floor trading pivots. I spent a good deal of my life trading for Investment Banks on the floor and when I retired to retail trading I discovered floor traders pivots. I traded on the floor for 20+ years and had no recollection of anything like a “floor traders pivot.” Why would you? Scalping is a reaction-based discipline, not a predictive-based discipline. You are not going to predict, at the beginning of the day where support and resistance are going to line up. You wait for SAR to manifest itself and then try exploit smaller traders tendency to get in late. You simply over power them with volume and as they exit you reap the rewards of their lagging strategies. Retail traders are a day late and a dollar short.
Here is an article about the type of prop trading firm I worked at the first couple of years of my career.
Once I demonstrated I could trade, the firm shipped me off to their prop trading subsidiary for three years for “seasoning.” I remember the HR lady using that term. After 3 years I was called up to the big time floor trading.
Most prop firms which I am familiar with have a specific niche they specialize in trading. Arbitrage is a massive niche for prop firms, even a good deal of risk arbitrage. Incidentally, we only used volume ladders to trade; no candlestick charts, lagging indicators…etc. Sort of like the order flow software that Emmett panned in one of his reviews. (yea, that was the equivalent of a medium power punch to your shoulder, Emmett)
Look, there is a major point everyone writing in the comments section has missed. If you are an indicator or oscillator trader there is no chance to succeed scalping, After looking at the chart set-ups that all of these firms use you can quickly spot the fly in the ointment. I am surprised no one has spotted it to date.
If your goal is a 20+ tick scalp and your lagging indicator based trading methodology gets you in late (usually about 8-10 ticks) you will fail miserably. I have written several articles on this, and while many of the articles I write are reprinted on the internet and a few in print magazines, to date over 1600 reprints, I have never had an article about lagging indicators picked up and reprinted. Hmmmm….
To scalp, you have to be trading in real time and understand the context of the market, where on the volume ladder traders are waiting to be filled and have an in depth understanding of volume. Volume drives the market, yet very few traders utilize this variable other than having a volume indicator on their chart along the a host of lagging indicators. How could you ever stay funded? When I look at these reviews and their screen shots, there is a bevy of lagging indicators, without exception. In a trending market you will be fine with lagging indicators, but the channels will part you and your money very quickly. Does real-time trading work? Check out my record.
I never have a lagging oscillator or indicator on the screen. Sort of like the difference between a nice Corvette and a horse and buggy.
In short, because of lagging indicators the whole system is rigged for failure. Just look at the numbers the CME puts out periodically. Does a 90% failure rate sound like people are being taught the proper methodology?
Oh, and Rob B, if you understand the variables I outlined you can take 5 scalps a day, not 20, and succeed. I am the exception to your standard answer to ‘microscalping.” What;s different? It’s all in real-time not 2-3 bars behind the proper entries that is the result of trading lagging indicators.
Calling TST a prop fund is wrong. It is a marketing ploy and you are the individual on the hamster wheel. In short, I object to calling these schemes prop firms. They aren’t. Not even close.
You know I would not have even responded if you had not specifically called me out. I will not go on one of my long response as I am sure everyone knows my position on this topic.
I will just say this Dave, I anxious wait to see your performance with the robot over time, assuming Emmett keeps on posting those results. And I certainly wish you were trading live instead of sim with the robot, as I am not confident on how accurate the robot sim trading is. I have repeatedly asked and once again ask Emmett to specify the exact details on how the Robot works including parameters used for sim trading.
Maybe you have discovered the mysterious unicorn indicator that actually works. Only time will tell.
Now come on, for me that was pretty nice.
Nah, it’s not the unicorn. Wish it was, though. May wasn’t as profitable as the first two months, by about half, but June has been terrific.
I am enjoying Florida by the way, I fear that I am hooked on the place. It’s hard to beat nice warm weather and man eating alligators….that puts some real excitement into the equation. Three people were ingested by alligators in this area, and I mean ingested, so far.
Yeah, it was almost a friendly response and I appreciate it-I think I have earned at least a small amount of credibility. Who else is using the robot? Do I have to challenge the Warrior trading guy to a trade off? Yea, I think I will….Warrior trading guy; I can beat you and your bullshit trading anytime I choose to. There he was challenged, and he won’t accept because he will get smacked around. We just have to set up some ground rules and the race is on…let’s go at it Major Mongo.
Let me respond for him.
“There is no need for me to prove that I can trade. I am doing it every day, making thousands for my subscribers”.
Great contribution. Do support and resistance have any bearing on your trading ? What is the best volume indicator: Time and sales, Dom, Profile ?
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