Algorithmic Trading Review

Algorithmic Trading Company
  • Honest
  • Quality
  • Cost
  • Support
  • Verified Trades
  • User Experience


An excellent, top tier systematic trading company. My most researched and thoroughly documented review to date. A tremendous amount of mental horsepower has gone into these trading algorithms. A very smart developer with high level engineering, math, and programming skills that is offering a true high level performance product. Proven track record. A level of honesty and candor, that in a trading vendor, I had not thought possible. Highly recommended. Excellent customer support.

Pros: Completely open and honest trading vendor. Trading algorithms designed by an engineer with high level experience in the design and implementation of real world industrial algorithms. All algorithms have proven track records from verified brokerage statements. Vendor cares about his customers.
Cons: Not cheap. The recommended account minimum is $17k and the price of algo's come with a yearly maintenance fee. Contact vendor for pricing.

Today’s review is a trading system vendor named AlgorithmicTrading.Net and Both websites display nearly identical information. The business is owned and operated by Rich Metzger. The official address for the business is 702 W Idaho Street, Suite 1100, Boise Idaho, 83702. I can confirm the address as a location for executive suites and virtual offices. An actual address is pretty refreshing, even if its only a virtual office. Over the past few months of writing reviews, I have found that the majority of addresses listed by trading vendors are bogus. Some examples would be a vacant lot in Houston, a wedding dress shop in Oklahoma, an actual church in Phoenix Arizona, a swampy field in Michigan, a trailer park in Florida, and a high school. I also found it refreshing that Rich has an answering service for the toll free phone number. The vast majority of trading vendors just default to voice mail, and getting a return phone call is tantamount to getting a wisdom tooth pulled. I made several phone calls to the toll free number, all calls were answered or quickly returned by Mike Webber, the director of sales.

Before I get into the nuts and bolts of what this company is offering, I wanted to take a moment to highlight some blaring irregularities. Anomalies. Weird sightings. Things that you just dont see too often in the trading world. As a matter of fact, I have seen some things with this company that I have never witnessed before. Sort of like seeing bigfoot, a jackalope, a chupacabra, or a fully constructed chicken coop in the middle of my local Costco.

Blaring Weird Sighting Number One

The first thing that I saw on both sites was an official stamp and a link to the Better Business Bureau. I have looked at hundreds of trading products, and this just looked fascinating to me.

BBB Graphic for Algorithmic Trading

This really piqued my interest. I see Better Business Bureau listings for roofing contractors, plumbers, electricians, etc. But I had never seen anyone with a trading product attempt to establish credibility with the BBB. Truthfully, I have known a few building contractors and they all hate the BBB because the BBB always sides with the consumer. The person with the negative BBB review is usually forced into some sort of monetary settlement with the disgruntled party because a negative BBB rating is the kiss of death, at least for a building contractor. The BBB is a consumer advocacy, meaning the consumer’s argument is usually all that matters, right or wrong. Within the context of a trading product, especially a product where the consumer is guaranteed to lose money at some point (all systems lose money at some point), I felt like this was an extremely risky move on the part of Rich Metzger. There is basically no upside to putting the BBB sticker on your website.

And in addition to the BBB being a nearly guaranteed lose/lose proposition to any trading vendor, I also noticed that are an Accredited Business. What does this mean? This means that Rich Metzger had to fill out a bunch of forms and answer a bunch of questions about who they are and what they are offering. What are those forms and questions? I was curious myself, and so I called my local Better Business Bureau chapter located in San Diego, Ca. I asked them what I have to do get accredited. I was interviewed on the phone, and then sent a bunch of forms to fill out. I felt like I was filling out the intake forms that need to be filled out whenever a person attends a brand new physician. I felt a bit violated. But I filled out my forms, acting as if I had a trading system to sell to the public.

A day later, I get a phone call from an “intake specialist” from the BBB. He had reviewed my forms and explained to me that the Better Business Bureau is a consumer advocacy group, blah blah blah. In a nutshell, if I get any complaints then I will be forced into answering the complaints and that a counselor would be assigned to any disputes and that the counselor would try and find a resolution for both parties. Immediately I am thing to myself, what if my trading system turns to shit and bunch of people start losing money? I am going to have to deal with some counselor that is going to want me to refund money? This is a risky bet for any trading vendor. And to make matters worse, the Better Business Bureau wanted to charge me $800 dollars as intake fee, and $500 each year, just to put that sticker on my site.

As I thought about this whole BBB accreditation, I could not help but think that the guy selling this trading system is really making an honest attempt at being honest. You can review the Better Business Bureau file here. There are 9 positive reviews, and one resolved complaint. I would consider these reviews to be very accurate. The Better Business Bureau is an entirely different animal than the fake review bullshit that can be found at Investimonials or random social media. A lot of you reading maybe thinking, “hey Emmett, quit blathering on about the BBB”. But you know what? Its kind of a big deal folks. The guy running this AlgorithmicTrading.Net company actually paid money and went through the intake process at the BBB, and if his system turns to crap and a bunch of folks start losing money, then you know for a fact that the BBB is going to come back and haunt him.

Blaring Weird Sighting Number Two

With all trading system vendors, they all love to display back tested results. If you know anything about back tested results for trading systems, then you already know that back tested results are as useless as second hand toilet paper. In fact, every time I view a page on a vendor that shows back tested results for a trading system, the contents within my stomach begin to curdle. They are vomit inducing. If they are not to you, then you have not spent enough time reviewing trading products. Back tested trading results mean nothing, the only thing that matters is actual results. The kind of results that can be shown and listed on a brokerage statement. Actual statements are the meat and potatoes that we want. Back tested results are puffery. Sure, they give us an idea of what to expect going forward, however all vendors pluck out the smoothest and prettiest of the results. In other words, the bride you are marrying is not the same bride that shows up later to consummate the marriage.

So lets jump to Blaring Weird Sighting Number Two…brokerage statements. You can clearly see on these pages that we are looking at brokerage statements from Trade Station. Admittedly, the entire year of 2014, for both clients that submitted brokerage statements is highly, highly impressive. Of course, both clients did add units aggressively throughout the year, but we cannot argue with these results. I would love to have these types of returns.

But are these brokerage account statements real? Or are they doctored nonsense, a creation of a clever graphic artist? And so I downloaded all of the statements for both clients, covering the entire year. Next I emailed the attached .pdf’s to broker support at Trade Station Securities. I specifically wanted to speak with a broker that could review these statements for authenticity. After 20 minutes of speaking on the phone, and another 6 hours of waiting for an answer, I got what I was looking for…the statements were in fact authentic.

Blaring Weird Sighting Number Three

Next, after confirming with the BBB and the authenticity of the brokerage statements, I then went “web scraping”. This is where I do an exhaustive google search of the company name, the principles, and look for any dirt floating or red flags floating around the internet. Surely there must be some dirt! This Rich Metzger is too squeaky clean. Finally I find some dirt. The Rip Off Report. Now I had this Rich Metzger exactly where I wanted him. The Rip Off Report! Nobody can survive a a bad write up on the Rip Off Report. And what I found out next is going to amaze you…

It turns out that the Rip Off Report actually gave Rich Metzger and My Trading Biz a reward. And certified him and his company as a “Rip Off Report Safe Business Service“. WTF! The Rip Off Rich Metzger ReviewReport actually likes this guy? Amazing. The Rip Off Report does not like anyone, anything, or any business. Its the cesspool of complaints. Once you get your own page on the Rip Off Report, you might as well change your name and move to Ecuador because your reputation as a business owner and a human being are now destroyed. No kidding folks. This is the oddest situation. Read the report My Stock Trading Biz-Rich Metzgeryourself. To make all of this stranger than fiction, The Rip Off Report even had a third party, on-site verfier visit Rich Metzger and take pictures of him.

The following is an excerpt from the Rip Off Report,

Ripoff Report’s discussions with MyStockTradingBiz have uncovered an ongoing commitment by the company to total client satisfaction. This commitment is unprecedented in the industry they serve. For one, they offer an onsite installation service where they actually travel to their customers location and perform a professional installation of the algorithms onto their customers tradestation platform. Furthermore, they provide 24/7 phone support to all customers. They are available to help ensure customers are properly trading their three algorithms. They don’t just do the install and vanish.

This is pretty impressive stuff folks. It seems like at every turn, I kept uncovering more information that kept reaffirming the honesty and legitimacy of this company.

AlgorithmicTrading.Net: The updated results for 2015

On both of the webpages, and, the performance figures for real time trading are all verified and real. But notice how there is no updated performance information for 2015? This made me suspicious and so I called and spoke with Mike Webber on the telephone. He directed me to the spreadsheet that contained the updated performance. Please view below:

AlgorithmicTrading.Net *Real Time Results 2015*

Trading DateAlgo 1Algo 2Algo 3Algo 4Algo 5Daily Results

As you can see, they are in a little bit of a drawdown for 2015. Which for systematic trading, is not out of the ordinary and nothing to be concerned about. Mike explained that the draw down on the model account of $17,000 was actually close to 15%. Which again, is not a big deal. However, how do I know that Mike was not lying to me? And so I asked him. Mike then explained that as of the first of the year, the company decided to use a full service broker to execute the trades for customers. This would actually save the customer money by not having to open an account with Trade Station and avoid paying the platform fee’s. By using a full service broker, then the trades would be auto executed by someone that could “babysit” the platform each day, and make sure the trades were executed for each client properly. One of the unforeseen side effects of using the full service broker model was that the broker was actually getting better fills than the Trade Station broker.

Verifying The 2015 Results, Broker Relationship

What Mike was telling me over the phone sounded fine and good, but I wanted to speak with the actual broker assigned to execute these trades. And most importantly, I wanted to verify the authenticity of the 2015 spreadsheet. Next I called Barb Levy of The Fox Group, I wanted to know if this spreadsheet was extremely similar to what she was executing for clients. Barb Levy confirmed that she was in fact executing trades for customers of AlgortihmicTrading.Net. Barb went on to explain that she was not comfortable giving specific execution details, specific returns on accounts, and that doing so was against company policy. In speaking with Barb, I could tell that she was comfortable talking about the company, but giving specific account returns would be “crossing the line”. This was good enough for me. Brokers are notoriously tight lipped and sensitive about endorsement.

One other thing I would like to mention is that Rich Metzger negotiated a rate of $6.50 round turn for each of his referred clients. This is actually a great deal. Someone else has to babysit the trades at a very reasonable price.

Everything Looks Good, But Who Is Rich Metzger, The Phone Call

Ok, so after a long two weeks of researching, digging up information, looking for dirt, etc. I have been able to conclude that this company is real. The average return for 2014 was 99%, the average return for 2015 is currently -15%, and everything checks out thus far. But one thing I really wanted to know about is the developer. I wanted to speak with Rich Metzger on the telephone, ask him  some tough questions and find out more about him. What I discovered is that this guy is the real deal. He is an electrical engineer with an emphasis on computer science. Basically his entire career has been about designing algorithms for industrial purposes. Our conversation lasted for quite some time and I was extremely impressed. I also asked him to email a quick summary of who is he is why he started this company. I got the following response from Rich,

Graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering back in 2001 ( computer science emphasis). I’ve worked for Fortune 500 companies as a logic design engineer including Hewlett-Packard, Intel and Qualcomm until 2013 when I decided to start my own Algorithm Development Company. My expertise in algorithm development, finite state machine coding/design and advanced mathematics has made me the perfect fit for quant/mechanical trading.

As far as trading goes, I traded on the side the entire time while doing the corporate grind, mostly losing money as my emotions whipped me in and out of trades at pretty much the exact wrong time. It wasn’t until I began doing research on quant trading that I began to realize there is a better way.   I signed up with tradestation and began coding very basic algorithms and quickly started to realize the power of back-testing. The bad news was that also started the “learning phase again” quickly realizing that back-testing is only a small part of the battle.  I coded over well over 300 algorithms, almost all of which did poorly when applied to live trades. A few stood out as gems and those are what we offer to our customers today.  The white paper describes our design methodology which includes trading in liquid markets, back-testing, independent evaluations, large average gain per trade, etc.

My best advice to future developers?  Keep your algorithm as simple as possible.  The fewer the technical indicators the better (1-2 is ideal). Be honest with yourself and try to prove your algorithm wrong. Don’t get caught up in the emotions of thinking you found the holy grail, you really didn’t because it doesn’t exist. Try to find reasons why your algorithm will fail once going live and then let the chips fall where they may!



OK Richard, That Sounds Nice But This Annoyed Me…

One of the things that annoyed me was the presence of two web sites. contains roughly the exact same information as And in all honesty, neither site does a very compelling job of selling the service. However, I was able to pull out a very well drafted .pdf “White Paper” which is exactly the information that you need that explains everything in great detail. I mentioned the confusion and incongruencies of both websites to Rich. He completely agreed. The original name was, which to me sounds scammy. Rich agreed and began building out, and will be shutting down the website in the near future. However, even the website is probably too rich and cumbersome for most folks. The .pdf white paper is really the meat and potatoes of the program. Its does an excellent job at describing exactly what the Algorithmic  Trading company can do for you.


Wrapping Things Up

This is probably one of the most exhaustive and well researched blog posts that I have made. Considering that this is a trading system, I wanted to really make sure that every detail was fully researched, and every piece of evidence was documented and investigated. For me, I really like this trading system and am personally very close to making a decision on purchasing the system and then opening an account at Fox Trading. A lot of mental horsepower went into the creation of the algos. And I have a double extra does of confidence in knowing that everyone involved at this company also has their money trading the system. Just too many positive variables to ignore this company.

Once again, thanks for reading and don’t forget to leave any comments or questions below.

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Joe (@guest_5056907)
6 months ago

Thanks for the in depth review!

P. Johnson
P. Johnson (@guest_5056619)
7 months ago

Hello I am curious if you did end up purchasing a license for the software and if you did what was your experience? Thanks!

Bob (@guest_4055417)
1 year ago

Hi Emmett,
As a first time reader of your website, I have doubts if your reviews are researched in detail. Your mission should be to safe guard the hard earn money and time of your readers. I have more faith coming from the negative comments of this company than your review. The company, Algorithmic Trading, is just making it too hard to find truthful information about their company. We all know in the equities education and vending industry that all claims are considered false unless it can be verified.

Who is going to waste their time selling you a “map” to their gold mine for $100 a pop.


Kool Breeze
Kool Breeze (@guest_3053740)
1 year ago

Hi all who have been trading this system. Please email me at I am seriously considering this system. Specifically the ProTrader (6 algos).

Forgive the weird name, my real name is John and I am looking to create a WhatsApp group for real traders of these algos.

KayeF (@guest_3049168)
1 year ago

Hi, any customers out there that made it big and then successfully cashed out?

KayeF (@guest_3049124)
1 year ago

Hi Mike F, can you give updates to your trades 2019? Just doing some research at the moment about this company and their products, so it would be nice to hear results from person like you who’s been using their system/product for quite sometime now.

KayeF (@guest_3049126)
1 year ago
Reply to  KayeF

thanks in advance

Mike F
Mike F (@guest_31361)
3 years ago

Just wanted to provide a real world review from an actual customer. I researched the system for about 2 months before pulling the trigger on a 60k account. I went live Dec 1st and as of today, my net Liq is 82,115. A 37% Gain in less than 2 months. Early December started out a bit slow but it was off to the races shortly afterwards. I trade 50% crusher and 50% swing. I plan to upgrade my plan and I’d be interested in connecting with other current members. Everyone has been great, Rich, Richard, Barb, and Fox Group. My only request would be more communication on the various Algos performance at the close of every month. Emmett, thanks for the review.

MichaelP (@guest_32127)
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike F

Mike F. – was looking into this solution…wondering how your performance has been since you posted this given the correction we’ve experienced earlier this year(2018). I’m also concerned as their website hasn’t posted any 2018 results for the S&P Crusher product…. Thank you!

Shay (@guest_3052831)
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike F

Mike F i`m also a Live customer, recently started around a month, right now i`m a bit down, lets connect in real time or on whatsapp it would be nice to work with some one doing this live, you can email me at feel free to email me.

Mkt (@guest_30625)
3 years ago

I just heard about these guys. Apparently the 2 systems they now promote (SwingTrader and S&P Crusher 2) have done really well for the last few years. Of course we’ve mostly had a non-stop bull market with little volatility and low drawdowns (especially this year). Given some of their past performance (based on this blog) and the price (did I read $15K?), I’m not very interested. I’d be more willing to try them if they had a reasonable monthly fee instead.

Can anyone verify their recent performance (2016-present)?

Shayan (@guest_28235)
3 years ago

Emmet, where can i email you please?

Shayan (@guest_28218)
3 years ago

Guys, is there any further update?I want to see live results for 2015, 2016 and 2017, on all my research this company looks much better then the others but an updated review would be awesome, also did emminent eventually get this sytem and start trading with it?


Will (@guest_27758)
3 years ago

Lots of discussion here, from both sides. I am simply going to state that the drawdowns and sharpe ratios are totally unacceptable from an investing standpoint. Everything depends on entry timing. Get lucky and you can stay well above break even; get unlucky and you can loose so much as to never be able to recover unless more funds are added. Plenty of disclaimers on the web site, owner/programmer is trying to be legit, and all that, but my best advice is “stay the hell away”.

Guest (@guest_27168)
3 years ago

I did not see a date but the creator of this system, Richard Metzger, has it up for sale.

R.G. (@guest_27203)
3 years ago
Reply to  Guest

I’m not sure what exactly is being offered for sale. I think the owner is offering licenses (starting at $16,000) to use his proprietary software. With a license, a person could start a home-based business trading the financial assets that his software analyzes. This business listing would seem to be no more than an advertisement to attract new customers by framing the purchase of a license as the purchase of a business. Note that the EBITDA is exactly $16,000 less than the gross revenue – the difference presumably being the cost of the minimum fee for a license. To what extent the listed gross revenue is real (based on actual trading results) or hypothetical is not clear.

Guest (@guest_8941)
4 years ago

Check out Collective2. Very similar to Richard’s systems, and you can mesh and put together strategies. you can also have full transparency of history. To pay $15,000 for similar strategies–seems like Richard’s system is kind of scamming you. People, there are other auto-trading systems out there–and you have access and control the system. Richard should actually look and promote his systems on Collective2. Of course, he would have to be more transparent and prove his system–instead of hiding behind constant changing marketing and data/performance augmentation: for the capital, you can easily find other systems on that outperform Richard’s systems. Again, not saying Richard’s systems are junk: just that they are NOT, NOT worth the $15,000 price tag–outrageous. I would actually consider using his NQ algo if I could combine it with some of my other strategies now on Collective2.

Honest person
Honest person (@guest_11807)
4 years ago
Reply to  Guest

I believe Richard really wants his system profitable. However, for the past one to two years, his system made his clients lost a lot of money, let alone the $15k membership fee. His system generally makes money for 3 months, then losts all of the profit in the 4th month, or even worse. My friend lost about $15k within the first two months (1/3 of the capital), then earned some money back, then lost money again. Finally, he still lost $15k after half a year. Richard is still improving his system, but I really think he should charge his clients monthly, not $15k at the beginning. It’s unfair and not right that He made his clients lost $20k-30k (including membership Fee) within several months……

tracy bullis
tracy bullis (@guest_8595)
4 years ago

Thought-provoking comments . I am thankful for the insight , Does anyone know if my company would be able to obtain a template IRS 13614-C document to use ?

Guest (@guest_8446)
4 years ago

Again–Richard & Emmet? why not respond to the fact that Richard has recommended and stated to former customers that the NQ trading system he promoted and sold for years is not likely to really be beneficial? Why Richard, did you email clients to really consider and basically recommend to stop the NQ strategy. Why??

I am former legacy customer that has decided to move on. I did very good in the early days–when there were huge gap ups overnight and that is essentially how it made it so much $$. Market was just going straight up and this system did well. However, during trending markets it has the potential to rip your head off. The system has changed a lot. His performance stats and advertising changes too frequently. However, lately, nothing from good old Richard. Poor follow-up from Richard. In the early years he would often reach out and update routinely his customer base. He even would send out happy holiday greetings. Rarely ever hear anything from him or his company anymore. No updates, encouragement, of ‘coaching’ for the very high priced system he has sold.

Gain has a high reputation. I recently discontinued my trading–and a major red flag: there executive team contacted me personally and there was not one mention at all about why I was deciding to stop the system. I get the hint that dude, yes, take your $$ and get out now before this system destroys every last penny. They were making me know there were other strategies out there to trade.

Anyone interested in similar trading: I would highly recommend checking out Collective2. Excellent. Have to be very careful though and know what you are doing but there is incredible transparency and potential trading. By pulling my $$ out of Gain away from Richard, I have made the subscription fees all back in 2 weeks times utilizing several different strategies–with different developers. So, traders: check them out.

Also, a hint to Richard: you actually should really consider promoting your systems with Collective2. Your systems have potential. That seems more of an environment you could really prosper with. They are monthly fees: much more reasonable than your incredible fees for your subscriptions. There are actually many strategies similar to your design: so your $15,000 fees are really outrageous compared to what you can get with Collective2. It is auto traded and synced with interactive brokers. Also, subscriber can also increase or decrease/scale up or down trading size. No limits to how many contracts you can trade with–no limits. Really is crazy you limit trade size. Most subscriptions at Collective 2 range from $75 to 400 monthly-most in $200 range. Plus you can stop or pause any trading strategy.

robert (@guest_7375)
4 years ago

I think this service should be reviewed again. looks very shady.

Pekelo (@guest_7386)
4 years ago
Reply to  Emmett Moore

It is not the DD what the problem is but the price. The price simply takes away all the profits. Then how is a subscriber supposed to make money, specially if they charge more for using more cars? Or is that price for life, thus the first year’s return is for the payment, and it starts to generate money from year 2 only? That is an investment, not a subscription service…

Rob B
Rob B (@guest_7388)
4 years ago
Reply to  Emmett Moore

Draw downs are tough enough when you are doing your own trading and know what you are doing, but taking draw downs on some algo you know nothing about. Man that is tough!! To me something like this is for people who have more money than they know what to do with, so if they lose no big deal. I doubt that describes most of his subscribers.

Osikani (@guest_7390)
4 years ago
Reply to  Emmett Moore

Even after they are told that Algo trading is no Holy Frail, and after they say that they agree, they are still looking for a system that has a straight up equity curve with no drawdowns. So when the drawdown starts, they think it is time to abandon the system and look for the next one, one that has no drawdowns.

In other words, they are still seeking that Holy Grail, even while they deny it. They only pay lip service to the notion that the system can sustain losses for a considerable length of time.

Joseph (@guest_7924)
4 years ago
Reply to  Osikani

Why can’t people see reality? These algorithms trade in markets that are purely speculative! What kind of actual professional would do this? NONE! Sit back take a deep breath and realize these are PURE gambling programs… I stake my life on the fact that NOT ONE of Richards customers has a clue as to how financial markets work! They just have surplus cash and don’t know what to do with it…. Pure and simple. He is trying to “count cards”… As always, the house is onto the game…. As such, this will fail.

Guest (@guest_11843)
4 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Why do you block my comments?

Pekelo (@guest_7355)
4 years ago

Just looked them up with their recent performance. They have 4 products, and I picked NQ Active Trader, because it has a 1 year Live performance displayed, showing return of 30%. (4.2K on a 15K account) That sounds good, but the advertised return based on back testing is 104%. That is quite a bit of a difference, and why would you use a backtesing result when you have actual Live trading performance??? Oh, because that shows 3 times more return, that is why.

I am not sure what their cost is, Emmett says they are expensive. This only works if one has a fairly large account (I would say 100K at least) to make it worth the risk…

Pekelo (@guest_7356)
4 years ago
Reply to  Pekelo

After reading some of the posts here, Richard says about the price:
5K for 1 contract traded, 15K for 4 contracts. Well, if I only traded 1 contract, the price of the system killed all the profits for the last 12 months (NQ Active Trader) and I would end up with -$800 in the red. And trading 4 contracts on a 60K account after subtracting the cost of 15K gives a 16.8-15=1.8K profit or 3% instead of the advertised 104%.

What is a 100% difference between friends? Bottom line is, if a system is very expensive, you definitely have to calculate the cost of the system into the performance because that makes a HUGE difference….

My take on this system, it might work, but the cost of it makes it prohibitively expensive and not worth it…

Goagal (@guest_7363)
4 years ago
Reply to  Pekelo

What is “100% difference”, you ask? In my book it’s called “fraud”.

Pekelo (@guest_7385)
4 years ago
Reply to  Goagal

It was a joke, but the difference was between backtested results and real results minus subscription fee.

Osikani (@guest_7393)
4 years ago
Reply to  Pekelo

To me, the only purpose of a backtest, is to find out if a strategy would have made money, if we had perfect knowledge of the future. Backtest is the only situation in which we always know what happened after the trade entry. If the backtest cannot make a profit, then for me, there is then no point in testing forward on live data. IOW, I use backtesting to eliminate those strategies that sounded like a good idea when I first formulated them, but that prove to be a dud, even when I am essentially curve-fitting.

In my experience, most strategies fail in backtest, so I get to cut my wasted time really short, and can devote my time to forward testing only those strategies which have shown that they could probably make a profit. I only backtest on bars which show the real price action, mostly Range bars.

Rob B
Rob B (@guest_7365)
4 years ago
Reply to  Pekelo

For the life of me I cannot imagine trading another person’s algorithm. First I would wonder why he is not selling it to a hedge fund for a billion dollars being they can not make a 30% return. But more important what happens during draw downs and you are down 30%. Are you going to continue taking trades based on an algorithm you know nothing about?

I guess it is a personality thing, but I would never be interested in this. To each there own.

Osikani (@guest_7367)
4 years ago
Reply to  Rob B

Come on, be realistic. Hedge Funds have a remarkable arrogance about all the Math and CS Ph. D’s that they have in their quant department. Someone with only a BS cannot even get in the door to speak to a janitor, let alone the person who negotiates with vendors of any kind.

Now, on the other hand, if one of their broker contacts were to tell them about some autotrader that is killing it …. Of course, being the cynic that I am I am inclined to believe that in that case they would rather bribe the broker for the code and reverse engineer it. Only if that failed, might the call the developer, and try to swindle him out of the original code.

Rob B
Rob B (@guest_7369)
4 years ago
Reply to  Osikani

If you can show investors you can make 30% return year after year they will be knocking down your door. Bernie Madoff only showed 10% or so. Heck you can even start your own mutual fund or hedge fund and get tracked. Yes you have to do some work to do that. You could even start a newsletter and be tracked by Hulbert. All these mutual funds, hedge funds and CTAs performance are publicly available. Have you seen their returns? They are horrible.

I know people think that day trading is some miracle where you will make incredible returns, but in the current market if you can make 30%, you will have no problems finding investors to back you. Heck I even bet MES would offer you some deal and give you a million dollars to invest.

I even tell you a true story. In addition to be a stock investor I am a real estate investor. My daughter comes to me and says she wants to buy an investment property but not sure she can get a bank loan. And I told her she does not need a bank loan, if you can show the deal clearly laid out on paper, investors will give you the money including me. But she needed to show the purchase price all the cost of repairs and comps after fixed up. I wanted to see all the details.

There are investors that will back you if you can show the deal or in stocks can show a 30% consistent return. Anyway that is my 2 cents worth.

Rob B
Rob B (@guest_7370)
4 years ago
Reply to  Rob B

I will add one more thing. Many of these con artist trading room have started private hedge funds and guess what when they had to actually place real trades they just lost money. For a classic one look at good old Larry Williams.

Osikani (@guest_7373)
4 years ago
Reply to  Rob B

Well, speculating in commodities is tough. Even the real ones blew some up. After he ended the spectacularly successful Turtle Traders experiment, even Richard Dennis blew up one of his funds.

And yes, at this time, it is almost certain that Larry Williams got lucky in winning his championship, as he seems to have never been able to come close to even 20% of those returns any time later.

Pekelo (@guest_7384)
4 years ago
Reply to  Osikani

Then luck must be running in the Williams family because his daughter also won the trading championship…

Osikani (@guest_7392)
4 years ago
Reply to  Pekelo

Yes, I know that she did. And has she been able to duplicate that performance or even a fraction of it since? Just like her father, no.

Of course, maybe they are the most skilled traders on earth, who just happen to be in a more than a decade long drawdown?

Osikani (@guest_7372)
4 years ago
Reply to  Rob B

I understand and agree with all your points in this comment, but maybe I was unclear in my comment. I was really only commenting about your comment: “First I would wonder why he is not selling it to a hedge fund …” and how it is not that easy to get in to meet the decision maker at a hedge fund. I was not really commenting at all about the returns of his Algo.

All the things that you have stated are ways that would get the attention of some hedge fund. The method that he is using, essentially backdooring into a broker who might pass on the word, might also do the same. That, of course, is only if the returns are as spectacular as you are saying.

Rob B
Rob B (@guest_7374)
4 years ago
Reply to  Osikani

Osikani you clearly understand the real world of investing unlike so many others. For the record I was only using the returns stated by the poster who this sub thread was in response to. I seriously doubt he is doing 30% returns. I would love to see Emmett post continued updated returns via real broker statements or using the robot so we could see his real returns.

Would love your thoughts, please comment.x