KJ Trading Systems
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Honest
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Quality
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Verified Trades
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User Experience
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Summary
One of the best systematic trading professionals on the planet. A true, battle tested champion trader with multiple triple digit years of outstanding performance in a variety of markets and conditions. If you want to be the best at the craft of systematic trading, Kevin Davey is one of the best in the game.
User Review
( votes)A Review Of Kevin J. Davey And KJ Trading Systems
A lot of traders have not heard of Kevin Davey, or his trading systems. But, quite simply, Kevin J. Davey is one of the best traders that you have probably never heard of before. In fact, this nerdy looking guy from Cleveland is a winner of the World Cup Championship of Futures Trading. What is a champion futures trader? Every year going back to the 1980’s, a brokerage in Chicago has sponsored an event called the Robbins World Cup Of Trading. Its a big deal. All trades are verified and executed directly at Robbins Trading Company. These world cup events have launched the money management careers of some of trading’s biggest super stars. Winning the event is not easy. You need to put up real money and trade against the best in the world, under public scrutiny, for an entire year. Kevin J. Davey won the event 2006 with a return of 107%.
In addition to winning the event in 2006, he placed 2nd in 2005 with a return of 148%, and again placed 2nd in 2007 with a return of 112%. These are some serious numbers to ponder. Keep in mind that during the years that Kevin was competing, Robbins Trading Company charged over $20 per round turn, per trade.
In addition to winning trading contests with real money, Kevin has also published an award winning book on successful trading. I have a copy of the book, and it is as valuable as a 300 year-old Bible on Easter Sunday. Truly, this book is packed full of trading wisdom and trading systems that just work. If you dont own it-buy it. Do it now. Over the years, my bookshelf has been filled with thousands of dollars worth of trading books, most are useless garbage. However, a few are so good that I keep them right above my trading screen. They are a sort of totem to remind me of how champion traders conduct their business.
Kevin also has a multitude of published papers, reviews from peers, and general accomplishments. Over the years he has given many interviews, continues to stay relevant and his trading ideas have remained robust and resilient. If you troll
Movie Star Looks
through Kevin’s website at www.kjtradingsystems.com, you will find plenty of third party articles that tell his life story and his complete trading journey. It’s an interesting read folks, from a living legend.
So What Is Kevin J. Davey Selling?
In a nutshell, Kevin is selling a one-day live webinar, that is taught with five other traders, which lasts a grand total of eight hours. In this short period of time, Kevin basically packs into your little brain as much as humanly possible. The live training webinar is not cheap ($2650) and covers the following topics:
- How To Find Trading Ideas
- How To Properly Test a Strategy
- How To Evaluate – 10+ Ways to Evaluate a Trading System
- How To Build a Strategy
- Why Goals and Objectives Are CRITICAL to Your Success
- How To Test the Wrong Way
- Why You Need a Strategy Factory
- How to Select a Trading Software Package
- How To Recognize Testing Pitfalls
- How To Avoid 9 Terrible Mistakes I’ve Made in Trading
- Why You Won’t Get Burned Again By Snake Oil Vendors
- How To Separate Trading Fiction From Trading Fact
- Who to Believe in Trading, and Who Not to Believe – And Why
- How to Look at an Equity Chart And Tell if it is Fake
- How To Test – 4 Ways of Testing a Strategy
- Why Monte Carlo Testing Can Rescue Your Trading
- How Incubation Helps Make You a Professional Trader
In addition to the webinar, Kevin also includes three strategies that are plug and play ready. What is “plug and play ready”? These systems represent the best Kevin has developed and trades with his own money. Just set them up and start trading.
After the webinar, Kevin responds to questions for a full six months.
How popular are the live webinars? Kevin has offered webinars the previous listed months, and all sold out.
- August 21, 2014
- September 19, 2014
- November 8, 2014
- December 4, 2014
Contact Kevin for future webinars. His contact information can be found at www.kjtradingstrategies.com
Kevin, whats the latest ? I have a 200k portfolio in cash now, what do you recommend for genrating monthly income ?
“what do you recommend for genrating monthly income ?”
You want to use automated trading in order to generate a monthly income?
First congratulations on saving 200K. That is something the vast majority of Americans can not do. But it you are looking for some type of monthly income maybe you should look at something like buying a rental property instead of trading.
Sadly our Government has ran interest rates into the ground, which is horrible for savers and investors looking for fixed income returns. There was a time you could have taken $200K and bought some 10% bonds and preferred stocks and made a reasonable safe $20K a year with it. But now with the 10 year yielding 2% or less, fixed income sucks.
Here is my advice and take it for the price paid, get a certified financial planner and map out a diversified strategy for your investments, which will vary depending on your age and other factors. For example if you are young with a good job you really do not need income from your investment, instead you need growth.
And lastly if you turn to day trading for growth my prediction is your $200K will become $100K in no time. It is like the old saying how did the man end up with 1M day trading; well he started out with 2M. So if you do turn to Algo trading, I would highly suggestion you look at longer time frames.
Hi Eric – If generating monthly income is really your goal, I certainly do not recommend trading. Returns in trading are way too lumpy to think in terms of monthly income. You can easily be losing for weeks or months in a row, and then in one week make it all back. Or not. But you will just be discouraged with trading your goals are not aligned with the realities of trading. Good example: selling options can provide a nice steady monthly income, until it inevitably blows up in your face.
Send me an e-mail at kdavey@kjtradingsystems.com and we can talk further, if you wish.
Hi Emmett,
I like what you are doing with this site in general, but you seem to have a double standard when it comes to some reviews.
Regarding KJ Trading Systems, it’s nice that he had great (verified, I assume) returns in 2005-2007. We all know that favorable markets can lead to great results over a period of a few years.
However, how are his recent results of the last 2-3 years?
Thanks,
Shah
Hi Shah,
Thanks for reaching out. As far as Kevin Davey, you should be able to contact him directly. He is quite open and honest about his trading performance.
I will try harder to provide updates, but this is a pretty small operation over here. And chasing down these trading educators can be compared to ‘whack-a-mole’.
Wish I had more writers!
Emmett
Thx Emmett, appreciate your feedback!
Well, Mr. Davey has not responded to my post last week asking whether he has considered, in the spirit of raising the ethical standards of vendors, to share his income tax returns with you or a third party. A thoughtful response from him is really important because in the past you had said you love Collective 2, and Rob has shared information casting suspicion over that entire site and all of the systems traders there.
I have no desire to be “in the spirit of raising the ethical standards of vendors” – I could care less about other vendors.
If you are really interested in my performance – and it seems you are – then if you want to foot the bill, I’ll gladly get my trading results for the past 3 years audited by a Big 4 accounting firm (which I’ve never heard an educational vendor do, so I guess I’d be the first). And if they determine my CAGR for the last 3 years was below 38%, I’ll pay you back every penny you spent on the audit, and donate the same amount to a charity of your choice.
What do you say?
I assumed you wanted to raise the ethical standards after reading your Futures Magazine article on the subject. http://www.futuresmag.com/2016/01/27/beware-cult-personality
I like your proposal but would need an estimate on the audit as I am an hourly laborer the audit would also have to conclude that the % return was on a large enough starting capital to substantially outnumber the income you get from being a vendor, which is what you implied when you earlier said you trade fulltime and teach to give back to the community.
If you are serious, so am I. Just e-mail me and let’s get started!… I’m guessing the cost will be $5-15K for the trading performance audit, and another $5-15K for your new added condition of a vendor profit/loss audit, don’t know for sure. I’m sure a Big 4 accounting firm will want money in advance, and I can put the same amount in escrow until it is completed.
Also, we’ll each need a lawyer to draft and review the “who pays” agreement. That is probably another $2-5K, assuming you are in the US. So I’m guessing overall, one party will pay $12K-$35K for this endeavor (of course, I have enough info to have a really good idea who will end up paying). So, I’m definitely game if you are . Just e-mail me to get started.
Are you serious? An hourly general laborer is lucky to have an extra $75 of spending money per week. If you can share the specific money amount (non %) gross profit of capital with us per year it will be an altruistic move as well as feasible resolution of this concern.
You requested a 3rd party review, so I am giving you that chance. We can’t expect a Big 4 audit to be cheap. If you want unaudited profit number for last 3 years, just e-mail me. I consider that sensitive info.
Why would one of the big 4 accounting firms be required for such an audit. First the only way they could verify or let me reword the best way they could verify would be to get tax records, as no one is overpaying the IRS and making up profits.
But if you really wanted to cheat you could just make up fake IRS statements.
First you could provide some actual information on the 38% return. You have provided nothing except it was over 10 accounts, which brings up question in itself. So I would say start there with information such as:
1) Why over 10 accounts
2) Did these accounts make up all your trading for the year
3) Where these even day trading accounts
4) Details about these account – day trades, swing trades and so forth
5) What is the capital being risked and what are the equity curve. If risking $500 per account, it really does not say much. Also 38% return sounds great but means nothing if it lost 80% of its value at one point. As no one could trade it.
So you could start with some basic information about what constituted the 38% return and if most of you trades are being done by one broker and I mean significant capital being traded then just release those statements as a sign of good faith.
If you want the actual IRS statements that I filed (and not ones I just made up), we can easily just submit a Form 4506-T request to the IRS for a transcript. But, IRS statements would not show % gains, just the dollar amount. That would not mean much, relative to the CAGR number I reported. That is the number you seem interested in. A good Bi4 accounting firm audit would give both those numbers. So, I’ll make the same offer to you as I did Amarant (who declined):
If you are really interested in my performance – and it seems you are – then if you want to foot the bill (possibly just until the audit is concluded, if you prevail), I’ll gladly get my trading results for the past 3 years audited by a Big 4 accounting firm (which I’ve never heard an educational vendor do, so I guess I’d be the first). They can also examine, in detail, all my trading records, and independently answer each of your 5 questions. And if they determine my CAGR for the last 3 years was below 38%, I’ll pay you back every penny you spent on the audit, and donate the same amount to a charity of your choice.
So, here is your chance to get your 5 questions answered, and verified by an independent 3rd party.
What do you say? I’m dead serious – are you?
Just e-mail me to get started.
This sounds like a good idea for a “trading titans” type of upper escheleon of vetted traders Emmett could rate highest, perhaps even crowdsourced to pay for the audits. It’s not fair and comes off hostile and evasive to expect one person who asks the most pertinent questions to pay for it though.
Sorry, I was not intending to be hostile, but realize by questioning what I say, you are calling my integrity into question. I understand where you are coming from (this is the Internet, after all, and people say sh*t all the time), but how is offering you the chance to see results of 3rd party audit evasive? You’d only pay if I was telling the truth about all this.
If it turns out I am lying, it would cost you nothing, your favorite charity would get money and you’d be the hero to every anonymous Internet commenter ever. Even with all that, you are actually claiming I am hostile and evasive? I am trying to put the issue to bed by getting independent, 3rd party verified results that you asked for about 3 hours ago.
I was inspired by your article at Futures Magazine. Keep asking for proof and more transparency and eventually this new ethics will become a meme that spreads above and beyond anonymous internet comments in value for traders yet to come. You didn’t show much flexibility in your audit criteria after I revealed my near single-digit hourly income and I had originally asked this question last week.
Sorry!
Here’s from your excellent F.mag article: “For example, the question, “Do you trade this method with your own money and could you show me proof?” is always a good one to ask. If you get an indignant reply in return, you are likely dealing with a cult of personality.
Another great question to ask is, “If your trading method is so great, why do you sell it?” Cult types will frequently respond to this in anger, rather than just honestly answering the question”
Indignant reply… I am sure O recently saw a vendor answering with indignation when asked this question in this thread.
I sensed anger as well when asked about evidence. Emmett’s update should show not just 38% returns but large capital allocated to trading, since teaching is just something he said he does to give back to trading community and is a full time trader.
Actually, Kevin sent me account statements and tax returns going back the last couple of years. Pretty juicy stuff. Hopefully get the update done by Sunday evening.
Really looking forward to the update, Emmett….
Can’t agree on the vig? 😉
I wish!
Well, he did not say which Sunday. I guess those VIG negotiation are very intense. He might want some sorta border adjusted tax added on those book sales. LOL.
Your integrity is in question now, more than ever – to me this smells like a smoke screen “pay 12-15k to get the audit” – I am sure cheaper ways could be easily found not using a “big 4”.
What about a more simple posting of redacted account statements for starters?
Sure, cheaper ways are available, but then there will always be doubt and excuses “oh he photoshopped it” OR “oh he is not including all his accounts” OR “oh he used a bad accounting firm” and so on. I am offering a pretty definitive approach, and unfortunately it costs some money.
Maybe Emmett can be a help in finding a lower price on a third-party audit. Your proposed audit sounds very thorough, would the Big 4 audit also show your (presumably much smaller) income stream from teaching/book sales, whichis more about giving back to the community as you put it, and would the Big 4 auditors do a rigorous check at all the hundreds of brokerages globally available?
A Big 4 firm would probably use a forensic accountant to delve deeply into all my finances, and they’d be thorough. But that costs $$$. So, if we are going to do this audit, we must do it right, and leave no room for naysayers and doubters. I’m certainly game, are you?
And, I have contact at a Big4 firm, to try to get a better idea of costs (maybe it is cheaper than I estimated). I’ll post when I get something…
The nay-sayers will still assume the big-4 auditor was bribed. So maybe start smaller and see if the community will be satisfied?
You’ve just said some people won’t believe a Big 4 audit, so what is the point of starting smaller? My offer stands, are you willing to do it? Remember, it will cost you nothing if I am proven wrong. E-mail me, let’s get it started.
My point was the majority will be satisfied with just redacted statements from brokers and possible filings for IRS – and the minority you wont convince anyway – so for now, go with what you can. Also seeing the above information may serve as a smoke test if its even worth investing the larger audit.
But you won’t be satisfied, and you are one of the people wanting proof. Originally you said “redacted statements.” Now you are saying “redacted statements from brokers and possible filings for IRS.” What is your next requirement? Where does it end? I have given you a reasonable, no cost option (if I am not being truthful) to settle this, so e-mail me and let’s get started.
I wasn’t one of the people who wanted proof – reread the thread.
But you have questioned my integrity, so I am giving you a chance to verify or dispel your suspicions about me. And it won’t cost you a dime if you are proven right…
Its very kind of you, but I already have an opinion of you and don’t really care what you post or don’t post. I merely suggested a way of doing something now, instead of blowing smoke and drag it on…
Take care, then…
Yes I am game. If you could also reach out to your associate Big Mike I think he could help finance this endeavour or even run a charity drive to help pay for this, to expect one non-wealthy individual to pay for it comes off counterproductive to actually resolving this as planned.
e-mail me and let’s get started.
You are not entitled to a badge of integrity, it’s earned and it is highly suspicious that you respond to sceptical questions in such a manner considering your Futures Magazine article encouraging scepticism, unless that article was just a subtle form of self-promotion. If you followed the reviews on this site you would have realized you crossed the line by saying you trade fulltime and teach to give back to the community, while selling a course and books and not offering full evidence of claimed profitability and not donating proceeds of trading to charities.
Emmett now has a bunch of my trading info, but I realize your mind is made up, so I wish you the best in your trading and commenting activities. Feel free to e-mail me.
Actually I have no interest in your performance, as I have talked about the way I trade throughout this site with many post.
My point is for anyone interested in your course or any vendor making claims to verify their performance.
But the idea that others would pay for you to get an audit, just comes across as smoke and mirrors. And when you keep having your shills down vote folks like me, while up voting yourself it comes across as even more suspicious.
You keep refusing to show any proof of your claims what so ever with one excuse after another. Saying people will never be satisfied with what ever you show. That may be true but you have not shown anything!!!!! Not a single lick of proof of your claims!!! Absolutely nothing. And I am getting tired of the nonsense. You are starting to come across as a scammer who is in denial.
Here is the deal, once you actual post details and state these are your live results then if they are false the Gov. Regulators can go after you. But just stating you had a 38% return is just too general. It does not address any of my comments from above.
So instead of this nonsense that someone else pays to have you audited, how about address all the issues I mentioned. Seriously do I have to pay to have a mutual fund audited to get honest performance history results.
START SHOWING SOMETHING TANGIBLE!!!! Even Fake Redacted Brokerage statement would be a start.
Here is my WAG and usually I am pretty spot on about these sort of things. If you did make 38% ROI (and that is a big if), it was not by the way your course teaches and that is why you do not show any proof what so ever. But you can certainly proof me wrong without anyone spending 1 dime. You could provide detailed brokerage statements, get your broker to provide statements directly or let Emmett see them via screenshare to verify if you do not want to show the public directly. So many easy simple paths yet you choice none of them. In fact less time to show proof than the time you spend here giving reasons why you cannot.
OK you can now have your shills vote down my post to -10. BTW when I am voted down for demanding a vendor show actual proof of this claims, I know I am hitting the mark!!
I have reached out to Emmett, if he agrees to publish, I think you’ll be surprised.
Actually I would not be surprised as I think 38% return on any given year is possible as I have done it.
I have no interest in your course (just no interest in day trading algos not a reflection on the course), and only in this fight due to your response to others.
My point and only point is for anyone to verify performance and not blind trust any vendor. And in this unique case verify if the vendor’s return was even done by the method he teaches in the course. Heck you might have sold an investment property and made 38% as far as I know.
So hopefully Emmett will do a detailed audit and provide the details you still have not.
Did you even read my reply to your 5 questions? I clearly state where the 38% number comes from, and that I am not a day trader. I don’t mind having a conversation with you, but to do that you need to read my responses.
Well it is had to follow the flow on this thread. Which it was organized a bit better.
This just does not provide much detail in my opinion:
“Risk is much more than $500 per account, and 80% drawdowns have happened to me (as I detail in my book), but nothing so severe recently.”
Here is what I would suggest. See if Emmett will allow you to do a detailed write up actually showing real detailed results performance. Showing each account. Start dollar value and equity growth. And have that along with Emmett’s audit.
But even with all that which would be great, I still have the following problem. Is the way you traded in real life match to what you teach in the course. I thought your course was focused on writing algo to day trade. Maybe not!
No, my course is on how to create trading strategies (intraday or swing). I am surprised the people you spoke with who took the course did not mention that fact.
Anyhow, what I have offerred Emmett is my 2014 and 2015 IRS Form 6781, which shows net futures and forex accounts (all accounts together) profits/losses. I will attest that these are exactly as filed with IRS. I have not submitted 2016 yet, so that is not included.
These documents will not prove the CAGR number I gave, and will not show equity curves and drawdowns, but they will prove I was profitable.
The problem is what I give Emmett will not be enough for the real naysayers out there, and as some have stated, practically nothing will convince the fringe minority. But it will be more than probably anyone else has ever given.
As I write this, Emmett has agreed to review and publish his findings, so be on the lookout for it…
” I am surprised the people you spoke with who took the course did not mention that fact.”
The only thing I know about your course is from what others who took it told me. But that is not the real issue here.
“I gave, and will not show equity curves and drawdowns, but they will prove I was profitable.”
Uh! this is the most important information of all. One could just setup a bunch of small accounts to have something to show for selling courses. But did one actually risk any money trading it is another story.
This is the most basic information that you can get for any mutual fund.
What reason is there to not show the capital being risked and the equity curve.
I could create an algo that might have a 38% ROI but it has a 95% drawdown. So everyone that trades it in reality loses money.
For one to make an intelligent, not emotional decision this is the detailed information that is needed. And there is not Reasonable reason I can think of that would would not be forthcoming with these sort of details.
Emmett now has information submitted to the IRS attesting to my profitability. My max drawdown over the past 3 years has been around 35%, and has been recovered from.
Kevin, if you have not noticed yet, Rob B. will never be happy. He must have some real life problems that have ruined him so he spends his days out here bashing everyone under the guise of being “for the people”. Speak to Emmett. Do not worry about Rob B. as you will never make him happy. The best you can do is be honest, and for people like Rob B., honesty is not enough. Do what you plan on doing with Emmett and see how that goes. Ignore Rob B.
Thanks for the comment. I think deep down Rob is a good guy, trying to do the right thing. Same with the other skeptics on here. I actually tell my students during my workshop “how can you tell a trading vendor is lying? By seeing if he is talking.” I encourage people to dig, and that is what guys like Rob are trying to do, and hopefully people who take my class have done that with me, too.
Anyhow, Emmett has a bunch of my brokerage and tax statements, spanning multiple years, so revealing that info will satisfy most, but not all. And that is OK with me.
Shill Cesar,
At least I hope you are a shill, otherwise you are a complete fool. This industry is nothing but con artist. In this business it is verify then trust. I am wondering did you believe in Bernie Madoff also?
I hope Kevin does show proof of his claims, but to blindly believe without getting any evidence what so ever is just foolish, there is no other word for it.
And I will give Kevin some credibility in the fact he says day trading is a fools game and he is not telling people how they can make $250K a year day trading a $5K account.
The only thing I have asked for is for him to provide “Reasonable” proof of his claims.
Sorry, if that was too offensive to you Cesar. But you keep throwing your money away on the scammers in this industry that make wild promises as you apparently just want to close your eyes and believe.
Hmm, Cesar I got some great bargain land I have for sell. I will give it to you at a bargain price. Trust me it is a great deal you do not need to check the land or anything.
I think Rob B. is doing a valuable service to the community in asking critical questions to vendors and shout BS when he sees it.
Keep your critical senses alert, Rob – its sorely needed in the trading business.
Rob_B is like the Alfred to Emmett’s Batman, what would Batman be without Alfred? Good to see KJ is finally showing some overdue respect.
Better to be Alfred than Robbin
Robin is expendable, Alfred is ESSENTIAL to Batman being a grounded and mature caped-crusader who doesn’t become self-indulgent. Any obese, nerdy, middle-aged white guy with a micropenis could fill Robin’s vacancy, Alfreds are hard to find.
You’re absolutely right RobB. His shills have downvoted questions and upvoted his defense posts. That’s why I thought it was good Emmett was taking down the shill voting a few weeks ago but it turned out it looks like it was just a makeover. Also KJ was a much earlier review on tradingschools when Emmett gave more benefit to the doubt where he and Reina got fooled by a number of vendors on tricks he wasn’t aware of yet. This isn’t bmt/fioforum where real questions can’t be asked. I do smell smoke and mirrors. The only way to get the truth of the performance is CFTC subponea of all brokers and account records like SchoolOfTrade. Otherwise we’ll always get a partial or fixed presentation. 38%?, sheez I’ve done 200% in one year although it couldn’t be called a consistent record since it was just 10 sessions of part-tiem trading which is saying a record can be flubbed around to look like dream trading, but the fact is these vendors still make more from their monthly churn fees and sales rather than trading for a living. reposting the link from fioforum which was downvoted by the shill voting.
https://futures.io/trading-journals/26542-kevin-s-topsteptrader-combine-journal-45.html#post347131
A good decision – keep it simple…
Thanks for the kind words, but I know it will not be enough for some. It will be more than I’ve seen anyone else ever disclose, and we’ll just have to leave it at that…
That is true – this marks a day in history where a vendor actually posts some kind of verification – so kudos to you
Thanks, but I know I’ll still get attacked and disparaged for what I did NOT show (“not enough years!” “not enough detail!” etc.) The fringe doubters will win again, as they usually do.
Tax Statements, Simple Indeed is an understatement.
This comment is now for Emmett. As we all know anyone can put anything into Turbo Tax and print out a statement. Much harder to fake screen sharing of real brokerage statement brought up live in front of you.
Emmett demand not only to see tax statements but the actual brokerage statements. And show the capital and equity curve. if I see some $500 account and some small profit I will know the whole think is smoke and mirrors.
Also please let us know if this was even from a trading algo as taught by this course.
Rob – You are unique. You say you don’t care about my performance, yet you throw all these demands out there for what you need to see. Well, let’s see what Emmett says, based on what I’ve given him.
I guarantee the profit I showed Emmett was based on a lot more than $500 capital.
And yes, my personal trading is based on what I teach in my course.
Demands!! You must be kidding. I am pointing out the most basic proof of transparency. WTF does Tax Returns show? First, way to easy to fake. And second Tax returns do not show return on investment or account size being risked or drawdowns or how the money was even made. It is like showing virtually nothing. Not even the smoke in smoke and mirrors.
But I will agree with Ken it is more than most vendors show. But in a world of con artist that is not saying a lot. Seriously nothing I requested is hard to produce and I would say the bare minimum and I mean bare minimum that any reputable vendor would produce.
And I state it up front so if all we get is tax statement that shows nothing then you can not post, “see Rob B is not happy no matter what I show.”
I await Emmett’s review and do applaud you for at least showing something. But if it looks like Smoke and Mirrors I will say such at the appropriate time.
Hi Rob – Here are some answers, which can be verified when we do the audit:
“1) Why over 10 accounts” forex and futures have separate accts, different brokers/FCMs to mitigate broker failure risk, some brokers don’t allow all types of trading (exchange traded spreads, naked option selling), and with Tradestation it is hard to trade multiple strategies with same symbol in same acct.
“2) Did these accounts make up all your trading for the year” Yes, my stated results include all my futures and forex trading accts. I do not include long term mutual funds and stocks in that number. The audit will confirm that.
“3) Where these even day trading accounts” Nope. I usually swing trade, I only have a handful of day trading strategies. Day trading, I have found, is usually a ticket to the poorhouse.
“4) Details about these account – day trades, swing trades and so forth” Most of my strategies have trades lasting days to weeks. Some trades last a few months, but that is rare. All major futures and commodities markets in the US.
“5) What is the capital being risked and what are the equity curve. If risking $500 per account, it really does not say much. Also 38% return sounds great but means nothing if it lost 80% of its value at one point. As no one could trade it.” Risk is much more than $500 per account, and 80% drawdowns have happened to me (as I detail in my book), but nothing so severe recently.
Please e-mail if you have more questions. I’d love the chance to convince you I am not a typical knuckleheaded vendor.
Over the last 3 years, I have around 38% compound annual growth rate.
Thx, I appreciate your feedback. These are great numbers!
Thanks! Just remember, whenever you see return numbers, the risk (drawdown) endured to get that performance is really critical. A 5% annual performance could be great, depending on the risk involved…
Anyone who subscribed to the algos can verify this? or is it. 38% on a $100 account out of a score of like 100 algos running over three years?
It seems like the vendor’s take on the “cult of personalities” of most sham vendors. i.e. overall a euphemized way of describing the kool-aid syndrome or the shill marketing machine.
http://www.futuresmag.com/2016/01/27/beware-cult-personality
(hey, isn’t b_ooks a regular on this ‘mag?)
Most vendors are shams, plain and simple. Many people are blinded by snake oil vendors claims, and neglect to do due diligence. It is really buyer beware out there.
yup, be one with the choir
Interesting comment in the article, that many potential buyers don’t believe the story of the vendor, but play some mental games in their head to justify it.
I saw an example of this on futuresio recently. This person claimed that just because a certain vendor had lied about his returns didn’t mean his system was no good. I think it was in reference to the KongZana guy profiled here. The user said that it was a good profitable system and the vendor lied about it because he had a huge ego. The excuse was he just couldn’t be satisfied with the profits he could get from it, so made exaggerations to feed his ego. Talk about a devoted cult follower!
And, BTW, at the end of the day when i gave Kevin my feedback, he lived up to his word and gave me my money back. A very honorable person, Kevin is.
To all: I bought the course for several grand and took it. Kevin IS the real deal. He has great material and goes overboard to help people. Unfortunately, I am a price-action trader and only use bars and a moving average to trade the market situation. Kevin did not have tools to build systems according to how I want to system trade. But, here does have all kinds of ways to use indicators to construction trading systems. I have seen the results of his systems; they are good. If you want to build a trading system, Kevin is your man. Actually, you will wind up building dozens of them to use the system approach correctly. When I took the course this Fall (2016) Kevin has 95 system going live with real money. Too much for me, but good for those who like keeping track of a lot of things going.
The workshop is touted for people who have at least a few years of experience in trading and/or development (according to the faq on the site). But the information given in the workshop is on a level I would consider for beginners.
The workshop covers only basic information (which can be found in his book too), which an experienced trader and/or developer is likely to be well aware of.
So while the workshop does cover the areas mentioned in the agenda, the level is too low to be worth anywhere near the price charged for the workshop.
I can’t recommend it to anyone, to beginners because its too expensive for what you actually get and for experienced traders because its too simple.
Hi Kenneth –
Did you actually take the class? If so, I am sorry if you feel it was too simple. In 2+ years of doing this course, I’ve only had 2 people say it was not worth it (and neither were named Kenneth).
Also, plenty of students have gotten even more advanced help (beyond the course) simply by asking me about specific topics (like trading multiple strategies in portfolios with advance position sizing, for example).
Finally, many (most?) students also take advantage of the rebate program I have with Tradestation, so the course ends up costing them nothing.
So, I am sorry if you actually took the class and are disappointed. E-mail me at kdavey@kjtradingsystems.com and I will try to resolve. I stand behind this course, and I know it has helped many traders.
I’m interested in signing up. Can you please share a link to your yearly P&L statements. Thank you in advance.
I’ve seen the Tradestation referral program used by some low reviewed guys too. I’m still interested in your yearly P&L statements and signing up, can you please explain why Tradestation has that referral system..is funding a live futures account so unpopular and so high in risk of ruin that they have to work with vendors to entice even eager new clients? I’d hope they could work to build lasting relationships with clients they have more than look for ways to lure new traders in constantly.
I am more than happy to help you. Please send me an e-mail kdavey@kjtradingsystems.com and I can provide more information. THANKS
Ok, I’ll send an email later. If you can clarify publically it would be a great help. It seems like these brokers know they are gambling shops..I mean they’re the one with the statistics of their clients’ profitability, so their actions speak louder than all others when it comes to what we can infer futures trading really is.
You’d have to ask Tradestation why they have their referral program. I assume they want more accounts, like any business. I used the program myself a few years ago to pay for a trading computer, so I can personally vouch for the legitimacy of the program.
They don’t want more accounts per se, they want an increased churn rate. I can infer that they want new clients because sustained and long-lasting relationships with clients do not lead to the sort of regular commission generating(profit for broker) relationship you would infer existed based on the “day trader’s dream”. The premise of the day trading dream, sold by many, is that the fulltime trader can produce sustainable income daily from trading and willingly say they educate others out of altruism rather than need supplementary or primary income.
“and so high in risk of ruin ”
— yes
I know people that have taken Kevin’s course and from what I understand it is a course on teaching you to developing algorithms to automatically trade. He has many public algos, but from my knowledge there is no 38% return results from those algos. He also has no TR showing live trades from which the 38% return is based on. So my question is, “What is the 38% return based on”? Is it from a single Algo? Is it from one of his own personal algos he uses for personal investment? Is it even live trading results? Is this the results of all his personal algos? What exactly is it based on?
Here is what I do know. These algo guys have been running scams via sites like Collective II forever. They run 100 algos. And just by pure luck one of them will make money and then everyone buys that algo and then they loses money. Which is what you would expect being on average the algos all lost money. I see this scam happening again and again. So my advice is just be careful and make sure you know exactly what any claims are based on and get concrete proof of live trading results and make sure it is not a small account. As they might be showing you the results of 1 of many accounts
Thank you Rob. What Kevin said about trading for the pleasure of giving back to the community is contradicted by some BigMike posts I recall he made about many brutal losing years of trading. If Kevin can clarify here it will be a tremendous help.
I am not sure what to clarify, and what the contradiction is. I have always been transparent about the early years I was a losing trader – I discuss my losing ad naseum in my book.
The number I quoted is for my personal trading. I have no independent verification or 3rd party audit of that performance, so you can choose not to believe if you wish.
I’m curious – the people that you know who have taken the class, what has been their experience? I think sharing that would be pretty important to show the effectiveness (or not) of the course.
” I have no independent verification ”
No brokerage statements?
“so you can choose not to believe if you wish.”
LOL!
Sorry, let me clarify. Of course, I have brokerage statements from 10 or so different accounts and brokers. BUT, for an overall performance number, I have not had a 3rd party combine all statements to get an aggregate CAGR. So, I have no independent verification of that grand total number. I hope that makes sense.
I am shocked to learn scamming is going on on Collective 2, I thought those were profitable systems traders looking to give back to the trading community rather than cherry pick their strategies to sell to the masses. In the spirit of raising the ethical standard for vendors, have you considered sharing your income tax returns with Emmett or an independent third-party auditor?
“I am shocked to learn scamming is going on on Collective 2, I thought those were profitable systems traders looking to give back to the trading community rather than cherry pick their strategies to sell to the masses.”
Not sure what I can say, but Really!!
Go buy the top performing strategyat Collective 2 and invest real money in it and see what happens and report back. Nothing like losing your shirt to make one see the light. This entire industry is one big Con Game.
“This entire industry is one big Con Game.”
even these guys speaking at tigersharktrading ?
http://www.tigersharktrading.com/feb17fotA.htm
(including old “friend” of trandingschools.org simon jousef 😛 )
lol, including the Primo guy who laughed about no verification and dupes “all the time”.
http://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/pro-trader-strategies-review/
Diva AllaPeters and her fibonacci institute yet to be reviewed on ts which should prove one of the more entertaining lady shamshow reviews when it comes.
Exactly. There was a guy on bmt/fio years ago who reported he lost 50k on zulutrade trying their “top 10” systems futilely.
I attended Kevin’s workshop at the end of March 2015. Before entering the workshop, other than buying and holding stocks, I’ve been trying to discretionary trade forex for almost 3 years. At the beginning of 2015, I decided to give up discretionary trading for personal reasons and wanted to move on to system trading.
Kevin’s book was the 2nd book I read about the subject and I was quite impressed. Read some other books, but I knew I needed help. I sent a mail to Kevin through his website and got a reply the same day. After I explained my situation, I decided to learn Easylanguage, because I needed to basic skills for coding. Almost a month later, I sent him another mail and he clearly told me NOT to take his course but to consider it in the near future. Too much was going on in my personal life at the time and that’s why he gave that advice but still I never heard that from any trading mentor.
Three things convinced me to attend the course later…
1) He’s a real trader. He proves that by his Futures World Cup degrees.
2) His book.
3) Telling me not to take his course at the time because of my personal situation.
First of all, I must say that his course is really cheap when you think of the services that you’re getting from a validated champion trader.
His course is very well organized. The live session is long, and he goes through a lot of stuff but the way he organized the PDFs, videos and the spreadsheets makes it really easy for you after the session. Even though they’re divided into 5 or 6 sessions, the PDFs are still long but by the help of his notes, you can find the most important parts easily.
I think the best part is the email support afterwards. He replies to your mails really quickly even if you’re not his student. After being a student, you reach him from another email address and he replies almost immediately, it’s like chatting. You can ask him anything related to trading. My Easylanguage skills are quite basic, but improving everyday thanks to him. When I have an automation problem, even I talk to Tradestation trade desk, I always get better answers from Kevin.
It wasn’t easy to start after the workshop. I set a goal and that is to produce at least one strategy (according to the Strategy Factory rules) per month starting with June. I was stuck till Kevin hosted a free webinar called “My Favorite Entries.” I basically copied his entry idea, added a condition, an exit and that was my first strategy. After the first one, things got much easier. I’m now incubating 12 strategies. (That strategy is still making money btw.) Kevin also helps you to find ideas other than his webinars. He recommends you books and magazines. Before the workshop, I thought that finding ideas was going to be the hardest part. Now I have so many ideas to test, time is not enough…
Kevin’s Strategy Factory Club is another service that really boosts the number of strategies. You should find the details on his website.
After the webinar, Kevin shares 3 strategies with you. With the free strategy on his site, you already have 4 strategies ready to trade.
Now a little about the downside…
You have to have basic coding knowledge. Yes, basic is enough. You don’t have to write hundreds of lines to create profitable strategies. As Kevin says “Simple is better.”
Kevin trades futures, so you have to be well funded to trade his strategies or to trade futures generally. Though he was kind enough to send me an ETF version of one of his strategies. But beware that the strategy club participants submit strategies for futures. If you’re not well funded to trade 5-6 futures strategies, you might consider creating strategies for ETFs and Forex.
If you’re not sure, read his book and sign up to his mailing list so you’re informed on his upcoming free webinars.
This has been an amazing journey for me so far. I’m a profitable trader at last! Thank you Kevin!
Sabo
Excellent!
Hi. What’s your real experience guys?
I dot see any trading related talk around this provider. Nothing thoughtful on Twitter from him. Only a handful strategies on C2, nothing consistently profiting. Lot of promotion, all classic chanbels (webinars, magazines, free “books” from multiple “gurus”). And a covering attitude against furus (looks like he’s friends with guru critics on twitter, one of them potentially Emerett). But couldn’t find one thoughtful sentence about trading. Checked also interview. All just general chit chat. I have red flags 9/10 and could be paid review.
Sorry you feel that way. If you want more info: Have you seen my real money performance here for “KJ Diversified A”, up 100% in past year: http://www.striker.com/En0303_trading_systems_performance_ranking.php?webpageID=8&webmainID=3 OR maybe read my book, which has been near top 10 sales ranking in futures for 2+ years now: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1118778987 OR send me an e-mail, I’ll gladly answer any question you may have.
Also check out my many articles in Modern Trader magazine. And a bunch of webinars for free out there, including a bunch on futures.io lots of useful stuff from me for free, if you look. THANKS
Hi. Well, i’ve checked all strategies on C2 (10) and Striker (3) and only one is profitable (KJ Diversified A). With -22k drawdown on 30k entry capital, i’m pretty sure you are in need of profit from subscriptions. The articles don’t matter, you can buy your reputation easily (in USA) and most authors in trader magazines (S&C, AT, Tradersworld, TradePlanet), again, sell subscriptions, as they can’t profit from trading. //Note from an European: To my morale, it’s shocking US authors rarely write articles and books for the humanity or because of passion, but to finally attract subscribers.// I’m pretty scepitcal here and i’m sure these strategies are yet another way of fixed income for their authors. I don’t believe trading competitions either, we know what kind of “traders” win it (e.g. becomeabettertrader.com). Sorry:/
I applaud the fact you did research, but somehow many of your “facts” are, in reality, incorrect. Anyhow, have a nice day!
Please do share with everyone the facts stated that are both correct and incorrect.
I’ll give just one example, I have had 20 strategies at Collective2. 15 of those are profitable, or 75%. OP claimed 0% were profitable.
I’ll gladly share more of OP’s incorrect facts – just e-mail me.
Do you trade your own strategies on a live account?
Absolutely YES. I trade around 80 of my strategies. The Striker results (5 strategies) I mentioned earlier, for example, are actually from an account I trade at that brokerage. Easily verifiable by talking to Striker.
best thing next to “proof” that can be come up with, yup can cover better being with guru critics and parroting the same sham words as critics.
https://futures.io/trading-journals/26542-kevin-s-topsteptrader-combine-journal-45.html#post347131
hi keven
i sent 2 emails about joining your signals and also webinar
xxxxp1@yahoo.com. waiiting for reply
bets regards
robert
Hi Robert, I replied to both, on May 27th and today May 30th. Please let me know if you did not receive both e-mails. Sorry for the 1 day delay in answering you first e-mail.
Alex is my nephew.
Send your tax returns to herbalifecomplaints at yahoo dot com for the years 2008 -2015 to prove you are not a fraud.
ATTENTION TRADERS YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE
If you or someone you know has been harmed by these “Super Traders/Super educators”, you are not alone. There are government agencies whose job it is to protect you from fraudulent (or deceptive) business practices.
By filing a complaint , you’ll be telling the Federal Trade Commission, the Securities and Exchange Commission and your state’s Attorney General (consumer protection regulators) about your experience. Sharing your story may prevent others from falling into the same trap.
FTC Hotline:
1-877-FTC-HELP (877-382-4357 FREE)
SEC Hotline:
1-202-551-4790
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"honest champion" hiding under his desk
Still waiting for the “honest champion” to send his tax returns. Of course now he is hiding under his desk.
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Most algo traders lost money during 2008,Who did not ? might be a better question.Usually persons that are agressive have a personal reason for this.
This fawning and inarticulate review casts this entire site in a negative light IMHO. Algorithm/HFT evolution of the markets only advanced AFTER KJ’s years of top performance. So this is like a guy selling info about his 1970s muscle cars and setting fools up to race against. 2016 Lamborghinis and Porsches.
Pete – If you were an actual trader you would know that whilst HFT is all algorithmic, algorithmic encompasses a great deal more trading types than just HFT. Algo trades may have a duration of days or weeks, it just means the trades are automated. So to your specific point, Algo trading certainly existed prior to the years of Kevin’s ‘top performance’ – a lot of people blamed the 1987 crash on portfolio insurance which was an early incarnation of algo trading. Just because the guy will only talk about results that where independently verified and updated by third parties real time (C2, WCCT and Striker) seems a bit of a strange justification to troll like this.
Yeah, this site slams everyone except this guy and like 3 others and the review is kinda sickly sweet but smells like 4 day old room temperature fish…..
Is the “champion” trying to hide something?
Re posting as first one did not allow me to leave the 1 star rating.
Don’t Confuse Genius With A Bull Market. “Honest Kevin” How much money did you lose between 2008 & 2015? Is the “champion” trying to hide something? Your records only show 2005, 2006, 2007 that was 10 years ago, past glories anyone?
Striker only shows from August 2015 to present with a big draw down in your account . “Honest Kevin” is just another smooth operator making $$$ by selling $3000.00 webinars not by trading.
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Response To Alex
Hi Alex –
Thanks for your comments. My policy about my personal performance is to only discuss numbers that a 3rd party has verified. Otherwise, I could say anything, and you’d have no way to know if I was being truthful.
Because of that, I’m sorry you mistakenly conclude I lost money or did not even trade all those other years.
Feel free to send me an e-mail, and maybe we can resolve your erroneous perception of me.
Did you find this review helpful? Yes (1) No
How much money did you lose between 2008 & 2015? Is the "champion" trying to hide something?
Don’t Confuse Genius With A Bull Market. “Honest Kevin” How much money did you lose between 2008 & 2015? Is the “champion” trying to hide something? Your records only show 2005, 2006, 2007 that was 10 years ago, past glories anyone?
Striker only shows from August 2015 to present with a big draw down in your account . “Honest Kevin” is just another smooth operator making $$$ by selling $3000.00 webinars not by trading.
Did you find this review helpful? Yes No
Hi Kevin,
Just came across your work through Tradestation strategy related threads. I’m intermediate futures trader and would love to see the performance of your strategies on live platform. Where should I email you for that?
Thanks,
ESTrader
Just go to my website and there are forms on many pages where you can send me a message. THANKS!
kdavey at kjtradingsystems.com
Emmett and Kevin,
I am so impressed by this post. I’ve spent a good chunk of the past couple of weeks reading through the amazing reviews Emmett has put together. Very glad now that I stuck it out for long enough to find this one!
Emmett, you do great work. May I suggest that you create a “Best of the Best” page, accessible right at the top of your homepage? Recognizing that the list would change over time as feedback comes in and new info becomes available, a lot of us would I’m sure really want to keep up on your current perspective of who are the current best resources. It looks like B12, KJ, and Kevin Kleinman are all exceptional, though I’m sure there are others (there’s a lot of info on your site). Easier access to the best of the best would save a lot of us a lot of time.
Oh, and please add a “Donate” button. I’d be happy to contribute to your work. It’s important and helpful.
Keep up the great work Emmett!
Great ideas Elliot! I hope Emmett reads this…
Hi Kevin: On your advice I will hold off on the seminar, and buy the book for now, but as a new trader, do you have specific direction in the jungle of dangerous advice?
Hi Patrick –
Just try to educate yourself by reading as much as you can. At first, just take it all in – don’t judge. After a while, you will find that you can tell who is real, and who is just faking it. If you are skeptical of everything, and tell yourself “if it is too good to be true, it probably is not real.” That will save you thousands.
I’d love to have you as a student, once you think you are ready. E-mail me, and I can test and see if you are ready for what I teach…
Great info Kevin…as someone who is building a trading plan and papertading. Your course maybe far advanced..reading your book first a few years of successful trading may give me the the positioning necessary to proceed with algorithms and automating trading..God read
Thanks Michael – yes algo/automated trading is not for everyone, and certainly not for new traders. I would say my course is best for intermediate to advanced traders – people looking for advanced trading knowledge. Thanks for the comment!
Even though I run my own trading site, there is always room to learn more. I am a more of a discretionary trader, but I bought Kevin’s book myself and I’m very impressed with his teaching style and methodology. It’s inspired me to move my trading account to Trade Station and I’m working on automating, back testing and improving some of my own strategies using Kevin’s process as a result.
No single trader has all the answers, but Kevin’s book, and even recently speaking with Kevin on the phone, has expanded my way of thinking about approaching these markets.
Thanks Jasen – It was great talking to you, too. It is always a pleasure to talk to a trader who knows his stuff!
I have Kevin’s book sitting on my desk a few feet from me and it is superb. Although I still am a manual trader, when the time comes that I opt for some automation, Kevin will be the person to approach for help. I think that Kevin would be a brilliant person to be on your mentor’s page, Emmett.
Thanks for the kind words, Stefan! Comments like yours make me glad I wrote my book!!!! I hope you decide to review my book on Amazon, too! THANKS
Kevin
Do you have trading results for the three strategies that
You offer in your course ,and why don’t you start a trading
Room we need real trades like you.
Sure, just e-mail me and I can give you performance stats. But the real value in what I teach is that I teach you how to develop strategies yourself. There is a lot of power in taking charge of your trading. As for trading room, I usually hold for days or weeks. Any trading room would be REALLY boring…
Hi Kevin
Can you please email me with your performance stats too. I am interested to research forward your methodologies . I have no idea how you can help !!? I am manual trader too 🙂
Thanks
Luciocarino
You just seem more real than 90% of the others out there
I must get a 100+ inquires each month on whom I would recommend as a trading mentor…Kevin is pretty much the only guy I would recommend. Sadly, I dont have a single mentor listed on my mentor page. I should probably add Kevin.
Wow, thanks Emmett and Traderz. Your comments make me feel pretty good! Maybe the difference is that I actually trade full time, and I only teach because 1) I feel I have something worthwhile to give and 2) because I have time to do it. Most trading vendors sell stuff full time because they just can’t trade, or used to trade until they lost too much money. Trading is tough tough tough.
Emmett –
I’d certainly be honored to be on the Mentor page!
Hi Sam –
Excellent comment! Most people who have taken the class are what I’d call intermediate to advanced traders. They know what has to be done, they just are unsure of what exactly to do, and how to do it. Building a successful trading strategy is about 10x more difficult than most brokers and trading software providers say it is. So, my course teaches you a lot of the proper techniques. But it alone will not make you successful. After the workshop, students have to work hard to create their own strategies, and have my personal support for 6 months. Many say my support after the event helps out a ton. But you are right – eventually real live trading is going to be the ultimate judge of success.
Kevin,
Out of curiosity, does your course cover what is in the book? I.e. could I buy your book, study and then take your course to supplement the book?
Hi Jonathan – The course encompasses the book, but goes well beyond it. Some people have read the book before, some haven;t, so it is not necessary. The big thing that people tell me they like (in order of priority) is 1) the e-mail support directly from me after the course, 2) the ability to be part of the Strategy Factory Club (which allows members to swap high performing strategies) and 3) the 3 strategies I give as part of the workshop (all of which I trade myself).
But the course is not cheap, and one way to see if you like what I offer is to read the book, or send me some questions via e-mail. If you like what you learn, then the workshop might be ideal for you.
Thanks for the reply! I’m still researching strategies and consuming as much free info as I can find before I drop too much cash in one place… I’ll pick up your book first.
Smart idea! Don’t pay for anything, from anyone, until you are pretty sure you’ve gone as far as you can go on your own. And then, make sure to research whoever you are buying from VERY carefully…
When you say you provide 3 strategies you give as part of the workshop, what form are they in? A step by step procedure on paper? A simple spreadsheet to help automate the trading, or a full app that gets the data from Yahoo (or whomever) for helping you select potential trades or something else?
Thanks for the question. I provide the Tradestation code for the 3 strategies, and also the rules in plain English. You could then put it in any trading platform you want. I’d recommend Tradestation for both developing and automated trading. There is a reason they have been around so long…
I just don’t understand how a one day seminar can be enough information to be a successful trader??? its allot of information and there’s nothing like real live trading.
You mentioned the need of being well capitalized. Hois much is enough?
Hi Tom –
It really depends on your risk tolerance and how many strategies you want to trade. If you only have $5,000 to start with, for example, futures probably is not a good place to begin. If you have 10x that, though, depending on your strategies that you plan to trade, that might be an acceptable amount. There is no one size fits all answer to this question, unfortunately.
Kevin, what about trading futures options? Those are a lot cheaper. Thank you.
I have bought Kevin’s book. I find it is a gem! I experience it as a no bullshit step-by-step process on how to create mechanical trading systems that can work in the future. I also took up Kevin’s course. I intend to properly develop my trading systems, and I believe Kevin can guide me. The course fee of 2,650 was a no-brainer for me: either I invest in myself (sign up for Kevin’s course), or the markets are going to take it from me anyway. So far, my experience of Kevin is he is honest, smart, helpful and no bullshit.
THE best! Highly recommeded!
There are very few people in this industry that are honest and Kevin is one of them. Next to the solid process of testing systems, the six month email support is invaluable if you plan to take it serious and go live with your developed systems.
I will buy the book.
Hi Chak –
I hope you enjoy the book! If you have any questions, please feel free to e-mail me. As everyone will tell you, I try to be very accessible to people.
Good Luck in your trading!
Kevin