Christain Financial Radio Network
Unfortunately, complaints have started to pile up from real traders that simply cannot duplicate the trades called within the trading room. The trading method, which is scalping has serious flaws that we discovered trading in a real market with with real money.
User Review( votes)
CFRN Updated Review
On Christmas Eve, December 2014, I wrote a highly positive review of the Christian Financial Radio Network. Of course, I am always really careful about posting a positive review simply because I know that a lot of folks will rush out and spend thousands of dollars on the product. In addition to purchasing the product, I have to consider that a person is trusting that my information will be valid for them. I take this responsibility very seriously.
My First Complaint About CFRN and Dewayne Reeves
On February 2, 2014 I received an email from a person trading out of Switzerland. They explained that based upon my positive review, they had spent $4,000 for the trading course. They then began paper trading as recommended by Dewayne. After a month of paper trading and copying approximately 85% of the trades called with the trading room, they decided to begin trading with a live trading account. The live trading results were horrible. In fact, the rate in which they were able to copy the live trades within the trading room had plummeted down to 15%. The end result is that a $30,000 futures trading account had quickly lost $10,000. I felt terrible. I felt responsible. Dewayne said that the trader was at fault and just needed to try harder.
The following month I once again began to record the live trades within the CFRN trading room. On paper they looked great. However, the person out of Switzerland continued to struggle and lose money. This confused me. I could see the trades happening on the screen recordings, and I could see the trades being executed at CFRN, however the Swiss trader kept missing the trades by just a tiny moment.
I then received another email from a trader living in South America. They had also read my review, sent $3,000 and also lost money because they simply could not copy the trades in the CFRN trading room. I became really distressed and then asked that both traders send account statements so that I could hopefully figure out, via time stamp where the problem was happening. I contacted Dewayne and expressed my concerns. He became less and less enthused about my questions and began delaying responses. Eventually he told me to go away and stop contacting him. I explained that real people were losing a lot of money, and they were losing it very fast as a result of my positive review. A bit shamefully, and with more than a bit of regret…I got to see a side of CFRN that is certainly not very Christian.
Figuring Out The Problem
After beating myself up, and spending many hours reviewing the trading data posted at CFRN versus the foreign clients, I began to see the problem and the pattern is very clear. The majority of the losses and the disconnect was happening between the Natural Gas and the Soybean trades. These two markets represent a big portion of the CFRN profits and are used to market the CFRN course, however these markets in particular are very thin markets. What is a thin market? It simply means that there is not a lot of trading volume, and anyone using limit orders would have a difficult time getting a price fill. With the foreign traders, I discovered the problem…latency. This was a simple matter of people being too far away from the central exchange in Chicago. Michael at CFRN was able to execute these small scalping trades because he lives very to close to the exchange, but the folks living farther away had absolutely no chance of replication.
The issue of replication is a huge deal. And I take full responsibility for those that I hurt. In fact, after discovering that my review had caused this damage, I nearly shut down the Trading Schools blog. Whom wants to spread misinformation and cause the innocent to lose their savings? Not me.
Where Do We Go From Here?
I have learned a valuable lesson from this. Although a trading room may prove successful on a simulator or even a live trading account, I really need to take into account whether the trades can actually be repeated. I also need to consider that I have entered thousands of trades on a DOM and have a lot of experience. Even with my vast experience, I also had a very difficult time replicating the CFRN trades. With this being said, I have to sincerely apologize to all readers, known and unknown, that took action and paid CFRN money. The truth is the truth, and it has become apparent that the scalping method taught at CFRN is not going to work for the majority. And considering that there are plenty of educators out there where trades are easily replicated, I have to remove my endorsement.
More Negative Reviews
In total, I received about 30 emails from people that had either participated in the trial, had paid money to CFRN, or lost money trading in a live account. I even got a phone call from a lady in Oregon that had purchased the program based upon a review she had read about in Futures Truth and how Dean Handley had also written a positive review. I reached out to Dean Handley and requested information and whether he had properly vetted CFRN. He simply replied that his review was written on a quick observation and had no screen recordings or live trading data to back up his claim. He could provide me nothing, but ironically marketed to me his own trading room (Tessaract Trading). I thought this a very cynical and self serving response. Anyway, if I ever attempt to open or offer a trading room, somebody better shoot me quick!
Where There Is Smoke, There Is Usually Fire
Over the past several months, there is now enough smoke to cause me a massive amount of coughing. And I now have enough real people stacked up that have lost real money from real trading accounts because the CFRN scalping method cannot be replicated. I feel bad. I got duped. I have asked that CRFN make changes, but no response. Perhaps if enough of us start making a fuss, then Dewayne and Michael will admit that the method does now work for most and that scalping cannot work for those that do not live within a very close proximity of the exchange.
What Is Most Important
To me, what is most important is that since I started this blog, I have learned a lot about trading performance. And beyond discovering whether a trading product is an outright fraud, I need to make sure that the trading room performance can be copied by a grandmother. Seriously, if a grandma from Oregon cannot make money, then I wont ever take another chance and recommend a product unless the trader has a fighting chance. Many apologies to my readers. Especially those that lost money.
Can you please review this site and all the promises they make. I have a friend who lost quite a bit of $$$
I emailed CFR and asked for some trading results. I later listened to a recording of his room and he read my email out loud to the group!! He mocked me for asking him how he’s doing. What a jerk.
I took the 5 day test trial and I didn’t even last the full 5 days before red flags started popping up. Michael’s scalping method seemed O.K. except that you need the right platform ( My think or swim would not work), they just scalped quick 4 tick scalps using a 4 tick range chart. You needed their special indicators (anyone who is selling indicators is a red flag to me. I trade on price action).
But then there is Dewayne – he was making support and resistance swing type trades that he could not verify, had no track record, and could not explain how he did it because it was “proprietory info” that they would not divulge even with the paid course. I did not get the impression the Dewayne knew how to trade.
The worst thing about these guys is that they are stealing peoples money in the name of Jesus, and for that I hope that they ROT IN HELL!!
Hi there, I’ve been a CFRN member for a while now and can say nothing but good things about the company and the owners. My experience is that they are helpful and approachable and very eager to support anyone (even guests) following along with them…
Now to respond to the artical… the room is NOT meant to be a copy trade room. They tell everyone over and over again and for good reason.
If you’re copying trades in any room you have LAG… lag with the room feed, lag with your data feed, then lag with your trade execution, then lag with the order execution if you’re far from the exchange, etc… It’s not designed for it, it’s not meant to be used like that and it’s not sold as such. If people have lost money on account of this, then sadly it’s simply their own fault.
There is a fix if you’re losing money because of copying trades…simply STOP doing it.!
ALSO If you’re trading Live before you’ve Proven YOU can be profitable in Sim at least… then STOP. Keep your money. Noone is forcing you to trade or risk your money.
The core CFRN strategy is just a methodology like many others…, it’s not magic! It won’t make a Bad trader with bad habits and immature tradecraft good… and copying room trades shows you dont really know how to trade yet… which is fine… it just means you’re not ready… no matter how much you want to be.
Now I love blackjack, but If I’m a rubbish player, I’m not going to get any better because I sit next to a good blackjack player and try to copy his plays… I’m going to lose… and loose BIG!
SIMPLE LESSON… LEARN HOW TO PLAY BEFORE USING REAL MONEY!!!!!!
In short I think CFRN market a great easy to learn product and show it works in their trading room… it’s a good system, a proven system, I think a great service and at a competative price.
Do I recommend CFRN? Sure I do! Do I recommend you actually learn how to trade BEFORE committing your funds (no matter what your meathodology)… EVEN MORE SO!
The head trader is not trading live. He’s trading on a sim account. He manipulates his results and enters them into an excel sheet. He conveniently ‘stops to break even’ when it is against his rules. He also tends to ‘exit’ at the very top of the move. When challenged on the discrepancies he’ll say ‘oh I got in that trade early’. Many times he will say he moved his stop to break even when his rules do not warrant it and he would actually take an 8 tick loss if he really followed his system. I seriously doubt that DeWayne has ever traded anything in his life. These guys aren’t traders, they’re just another group selling a system that does not work. Stay away!
I still get CFRN’s spam email and occassionally check them out to see what’s going on with it since this review. It’s only gotten worse. Sad, sickening, and shameful that the traditional faith is used as their schtick for fraudulent means of a shamshow site and room.
These guys put up a spreadsheet that you are supposed to be able to see but I can not find it anywhere on their site. And now they finally have a disclaimer on that spreadsheet Michael shows in the recap. I think it says something about hypothetical results which to me means they are not really trading live?
I was a member of CFRN for 3 years. I could not match the head traders trades and would often have losing days. He made money everyday…that’s a red flag right there. He has 1 or 2 losing days a month. It took me a long time to figure out what the head trader was doing. He shows a lot of his trades on the DOM…but not all. This would make you feel he is honest. I would be in a trade setup and it would lose immediately. He either ignored that lose or he missed getting filled. He is very good at this. He shows some loses…but not all. He rights on a piece of paper his trades for the day. I asked him once why he doesn’t show the P/L on the DOM…he purposely turns it off. He said he didn’t like seeing the P/L during trading for physiological reasons. BUT…at the end of the morning when he is done trading…he still won’t show his P/L on the DOM. I realized he was scamming everyone. One of the best scammers I have ever seen in the business.
Thanks for sharing. Sorry it took years for you to realize what tricks the host used. The trading sites before TS and Emmett either were subverted with select vendor deals or failed to truthfully review these thousands of snakeoil sites. If you read the reviews and comments here eventually you’ll be informed by the myriad sham tricks they use to fool newbs as well as new ones they come up with each year.. The continued chicanery is incredible. They all can’t trade live, and there are only a handful “well-reviewed” who can only trade breakeven live but yet still need to run a site for fee income.
CFRN tried for 6 months to make it work and lost my money plus another 1000bucks trying. They will not give you a personal mentoring session like they claim without jumping through so many hoops, you give up first. There is only 2 guys running it, so unless your spending a lot of money on their other promotions, that cost by the month, like the “one trade a day” or other come on’s, they won’t answer your enquiries. Move on to some other organization. You’ll just be frustrated & lose money here.
Two individuals trying to look like an”organization” with no shame of using the name of the faith for a fraud. I also think they are wannabe quasi-religious radio heads like Roy Master’s FHU which made millions in the radio business.
I asked him for some historical results, after all he is putting himself forward as the guru. He read my entire email out in class belittling and mocking my request! What a jerk…
CFRN is a scalp room, and you better be quick and fast. Also anyone wishing to copy their trades will not succed, you must learn to be very fast.
I was tempted to begin paying them but got spooked by a lack of professionalism. Your website confirmed my suspicions. Your work on this site is incredibly valuable in speeding up my learning curve. I am logging in simply to say THANK YOU!!!!
I continue to get spam email from them. Their latest spam seems to be attention gaining. One email said they had problems with their server and asked if old members could sign in and have them recheck their IP’s. Another email said CFRN was “closed” but their were reorganizing and “updating” their site. I think they really should get rid of the “C” of C-FRN and just call it FRN i.e. “fraud radio network”.
Yeah, it is like life…something about a grain of salt. Too much spoils the taste and not enough there is no taste. The main thing is to determine the honesty and then accept that there are so many different approaches. Some rooms show every trade and manage them on the charts as well as speak them out perfectly but they don’t make money. Others mumble the calls and have muddy, fuzzy charts yet they make bank, although you are not really sure if they REALLY do. Just go figure. These public forums can be a great place for people to speak their opinions…as long as we remember they are just opinions and like a protuding exterior portion of our bodies, everyone has one, including me….lol.
I have spent a fair amount of time scratching my head over CFRN, going from supporter to detractor and now heading back to a more supportive view. In their case, one needs to spend more time in the Trial to really understand what they are about (good reason for rooms to give more trials).
I came to realize that their Trade Room is not really meant for one to copy the trades exactly that Michael does, although for a very, very quick person, that may be possible, but to show you that it is entirely possible to make at least your daily goal everyday…everyday.
You have to take each one of these rooms for what they are and realize that not one will ever be the perfect fit but I do believe that the guys at CFRN are honest, and that is one of the most important things to know.
The issue with latency and slippage is a non issue because, as I said, they are not a trade call service. I live in Hawaii and believe me, we have latency problems…as well as laziness problems, but sometimes I get BETTER fills than many of the moderators calls…lol. Slippage can also be your friend. Once you learned their system, you wouldn’t need to trade the thinner markets if that was a problem where you lived.
I still remain a bit of a skeptic of every trade room because I got terribly burned by a lifetime membership in a room, that after joining, found out they were simply terrible traders. I did get a good education there but I could have gotten that for free online….live and learn. I recommend that CFRN deserves another look.
Great comment John. And good to hear from you. Sorry I have been MIA with the email. Been swamped dealing with the backlog of reviews and video recordings.
I go through alternating periods of euphoria and despair with some of these trading vendors. Like life, its not all black and white. So much gray area. Sometimes I want to just say that a guy is a total crank, but then he does something redeeming and good. Other times a vendor does great for the subs, then I get a rash of nasty emails describing a horrible situation.
Other times, I spend a week reviewing video and writing about a service, then the moment I am about to hit the publish button…the operator just pulls the website down and disappears.
I seriously could not disagree more.
these guys are sheep in wolves clothing.
Thanks Emmett for taking the time to set up this site and for all the hard work. Your review of CFRN is spot on. Wish they would remove “Christian” from the name, but then, that is part of the scam. I tried for months to get profitable results scalping the markets that Michael does like he does. One thing I noticed is that he almost always can click in at the last second and get a fill, or that he rarely has slippage. Are you kidding me? When do you not get slippage in NG or CL when they are moving?
Please keep looking for those few hidden gems that are legit and can truly help new traders. CFRN is not one of them.
Emmet, great work as always.. keep it up… In regards to latency issues. … I’ve been trading Nat gas, oil etc since 1999 from my home in NY, and even have an autotrader program I run with my manual trades… I’ve also had bad fills etc even with a t-1 internet connection until I got a VPS service in Chicago 1 min from the exchange. problem solved….. I use
http://www.speedytradingservers.com which I have no connection with their then I use there services but there are other companies offering similar services.. Bottom line to compete with the institutions and big retail players who have servers on the exchange I believe at least in my trading I can’t trade without a VPS after seeing the difference…. I’ve even run orders side by side on my home internet and the VPS and VPS always got its fill….
Hope this helps those with latency problems and who want the playing field leveled a little bit against the big players in the markets…….
Great piece of information Steve. Thanks for commenting.
Emmett, your welcome… I just want to add some of my trading involves trading news reports like oil and Nat gas inventories with software I have from
https://jobracketbreakout.net (whom I have no affiliation with) so there’s very fast moves on those trades which would be nearly impossible from me to trade without the VPS near the exchange.. Since I have the VPS I use it on most of my trades, But I still use my home internet connection for more liquid trades at times like the ES… but oil , Nat gas , few other commodities I use the,VPS…
See i was thinking of using a vos, but surely you must have the latency issue of geeting the order to your vps? I cant see any advantage?
my software is on the VPS in Chicago which is placing the orders. I watch and control ninja from my home computer on remote desktop connection. So there’s a huge difference again since the VPS computer in Chicago is placing the orders…..
If you were to give CRFN the benefit of doubt, then you would have them schlepping a system that would work for their head trader, Michael who is an amazing multitasker,the kind of guy that can play a banjo while riding a uni cycle and juggling with his ears…oh yeah, speaking in Kling-on at the same time. I have spent a fair amount of time there and I am not sure if I want to call them crooks…yet. They appear to have a system that might work if you didn’t have a nervous breakdown learning it…but then again, it just may be a scam.
I was watching a video that DeWayne sent out that took about 10 trades from his alert (consignier) service and while he used a 8 tick stop, he added up the totals as 2 ticks here, 3 ticks there, even 1 tick here and added them all up to get a total. Who could possibly know that each of those trades was going to reverse at 2 ticks here, 3 ticks there, etc….far too convinient
Great comment John.
I do like how Michael scalps. its interesting. The problems that I was receiving from fellow readers has to do with trading a live account. Some users were in areas far from the exchange and the combination latency and trading in thinner markets were killing them. I did not take this into consideration on my initial review.
This really brings up another topic of broker speed, infrastructure, connectivity. I am working on a series of tests now that pit execution speed of Broker A vs Broker B. Setting up simultaneous machines with trade bots to attempt to fill a limit order over a trial period. Should be interesting, only for the nerdy types that find this stuff fascinating.
OK, so let’s say by some fat chance that you actually learned how to scalp like Michael. Since you never really were able to follow his calls (no man on earth could do that) then you wouldn’t need the room and you bought a “lifetime membership”.
These lifetime memberships are really the scam. All these rooms that only offer Lifetime Memberships act like they are doing you such a blessing but they know that if you paid by the month you would be gone within one or two months.
I hear a lot of horns and bells and I see a lot of red warning lights now whenever I see LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP!!!
DR DEAN A. HANDLEY, PHD, MBA, JD, A RENOWNED EXPERT IN EVALUATING FUTURES TRADING ROOMS.??????
MUST REMOVE CRFN AND TESSERACTTRADING.COM FROM HIS TITANS LIST, AND PUT THEM ON THE RIPOFFREPORT.COM LIST .
Dr. Handley owns tesseracttrading, and its worth noting that only 1 or 2 rooms on his list are worth looking at. You guys need to do a review on him, haha
When Dean writes a review or makes a recommendation for a trading room, he should include a user comment or blog section so that users cam express their own individual experience. For instance, I gave a positive review of CFRN and I GOT IT WRONG. The canary in the coal mine were my readers that were messaging me and describing horrible experiences. So I got back into the room and found the problems, then I wrote a new review.
I have also gotten a few negative reviews wrong. The users told me to get back in give it another try. And the room moderator made changes to show transparency and honesty. Again, I had to write a new review.
This is one of the problems with Dean. And I do like Dean, but he needs to provide more and better detailed information on a trade room, from the ground level. Dean likes to proclaim that a room is good, then he attaches his many titles to his name, all of the sheep jump in. Where as I do screen recordings and review on a granular level. Again, not calling a Dean a bad dude, but he could do a better job a detail.
I must admit I was thrown off by your initial review of these charlatans. I too was fooled for the first few days. Day 3 I figured out they were full of crap. Its a slick setup they have and Michael is very convincing and sounds so matter of fact. It reminded me of the find the pea under the shuffling walnut game. Its a well executed illusion. Latency may be an issue in some cases but there is so much going on its easy to hide trades that didn’t work as things are so eloquently shuffled in and out. After super close examination I saw multiple occasions where losing trades were shuffled out as new trades were shuffled in. even if you caught it you cant make the people that are watching aware of the trick as it is not an open forum for comments. When I called Michael on the losing trades he shuffled out he simply ignored me. Why even acknowledge me when their are plenty of poor folks who didnt catch on. In my book these guys are the worst kind of scammers as they promote themselves as Christian in order to fool you into believing they are good guys when In reality they are Wolves in sheep clothing. Trickery and Tom Foolery at its finest. All that said, I appreciate that you feel responsible as would any decent human being. Even the best of us get fooled from time to time Emmet. Your heart and intent were in the right place and that is what matters most. Your still a Rock star in my eyes as you willfully bob and weave through a field of landmines in an attempt to help others from being duped. There will be hiccups along the way it just goes with the territory. By the way I can take care of the baseball bat for you as I have an ole Slugger from the days of yester year and live right up the street from you! Keep up the good fight Emmet!
Thanks RV. I appreciate that you took the time to write.
Feel like I am playing “whack-a-mole”.
I completely agree with all the statement above. 2000$ wasted into the drain and they promised me for a refund but never realized. Please guys if you are really want to find something good for trading on the internet, find the free ones, the guys making a lot of money will not charge you like 2000$ for some BS.
Sounds like sim account. This review is older before ts.org got more tough on sim vs. live proven results. CFRN has a “rebuttal” to this review. Amazingly, they tag along “fractals futures trader” aka David Adams in the blog. As usual like most other rooms they say the room is “educational” and not for trade calling. Well I wouldn’t want to follow apparent, prob sim 1 or 2 tick trading /w 8 tick s/l either.
A TR should be an educational and demonstration experience, not a trade-calling one. The operator demonstrates and explains the why and how of the trade. That should be his only job.
It is up to the participants to learn the system and wean themselves off the room demonstrator. That learning (for the participants, not the room demonstrator) should usually be in Sim, as proof of concept, and for practice purposes.
IMHO, the room demonstrator, OTOH, must be trading with real money. After all, he must demonstrate that real money can be made if one follows the system, with all its assaults on the trader’s pride, ego, fears and hopes.
yes, yes, yes, the same talk about focusing on weaning away from trade calling you find discussed on any forum for years. You even get the same “wisdom” on the vendor site blogs themselves and proclaimed traders with no proof on forums, lol. Anyone who has been around already rooms knows this. My point was to show the same trick scam rooms operate by saying they are educational only as another smokescreen to disguise they are only trading sim.
Sim trading is deceptive, not because of positive slippage or any other technical advantage, but because it leaves out the psychological part of trading. IMHO, the most important part of trading is the psychological part because real trading takes your fear, your discipline, your greed, your determination, your ability to stick with your system and your faith and throws it all in front of you, usually at the most critical moments of the trade. And that psychological element is what separates the professional from the non-professional trader. It counts more than you can imagine. Nothing about sim trading will define you as a trader, only real money can do that.
You may have missed this part of what I said: “IMHO, the room demonstrator, OTOH, must be trading with real money. After all, he must demonstrate that real money can be made if one follows the system, with all its assaults on the trader’s pride, ego, fears and hopes.” THAT is the psychological stuff, and THAT is why the room demonstrator MUST trade a REAL money account during the demonstrations.
You may have missed this part of what I said: “IMHO, the room demonstrator, OTOH, must be trading with real money. After all, he must demonstrate that real money can be made if one follows the system, with all its assaults on the trader’s pride, ego, fears and hopes.”
And yes, I still think that the point of a trading room is to teach a method and demonstrate that it works with REAL money, nor Sim money. The purpose should not be to call trades to be followed by the subscribers. Repeat: the room demonstrator MUST trade a REAL money account during the demonstrations.
The trades should be clearly explained, so that the subscribers can fully learn the method and then go off and trade for themselves. While they learn, the subscribers should trade Sim, and treat the exercise as proof of concept and verification that the method actually can make money.
Once they have understood the method and can trade the system, they no longer need the trading room, and that is the way that it should be IMHO.
“yes, yes, yes, the same talk about focusing on weaning away from trade calling you find discussed on any forum for years. You even get the same “wisdom” on the vendor site blogs themselves and proclaimed traders with no proof on forums, lol.”
The fact that scammers make the statements also, does not make them any less true. One must do due diligence on the TR, but it does not change the truth that the subscribers and the TR must be designed for the subscribers to be able to make the decisions on their own, and thus to be able to go off on their own.
There are many strange truths, in the trading world, and one of them is that a TR should aim to eventually become unneeded by its subscribers.
Unfortunately that is not the way that the scammers see that situation, and it certainly does not help if the subscribers WANT to stay dependent on the TR to tell them when to trade. That is why a TR should NOT be for calling out trades: it should teach and demonstrate the trading methods and system, with REAL money.
I never said a TR’s primary purpose should be for calling out live trades for those who want to be dependent on them. I would rather learn a particular trading style from a live trading demonstration and be able to do it myself without a need for the instructor or room eventually. When I mentioned CFRN is saying they are not a trade calling service was to show how backtracking and ridiculous and ultimately scammy they are in their own words in their rebuttal to the ts review. I guess my sarcasm and humor is poorly shown in my words ripe for someone else to twist them. They can quote all the aphorisms known to those experienced in trading all they want and it doesn’t matter as 99% of rooms seem to do a sim or chicanery game while often claiming to be live with real money. Of course they know the ideal is for demonstrating supposed live trading and may try to fool newbs to their room that they do so, but they don’t care as they are putting on a sim show for monthly churn rates. The fact there are also newsletters and rooms advertising they call out trades to freely follow for easy profits just goes to show tr scam room hosts will say anything to sell dubious trading products. And CFRN is a prime example with their “rebuttal”.
Geez. That blurb is even longer than GTR’s rebuttal blog with the claim that their “greatest critic” Emmett retracted everything in the GTR review.
Very noble of you to re-assess your original review and to note the issues with CRFN. But don’t burden yourself with too much guilt after all everyone is ultimately responsible for their own due diligence and decisions. I have been on the trading journey for nearly 3 years and it took the best of the first two to understand where trade rooms best fit in. They should not be used to abdicate self responsibility for understanding and learning nor p& l control of one’s own account. I have found various rooms useful to assist get a head start on the learning curve, help narrow down a trading style, provide trading comradeship, and to gain confidence etc..As I have said to others I trade with – we as traders need to take as much accountability and responsibility for our own performance as we demand from trading room moderators. Keep up the good work and best wishes
well done emmet i lost $2000 with CFRN
Sickening God chatter. god this god that
When are the Muslims going to start a Mohammed inspired trading room?